Premier 2nd season

This of course reminds me of "Live together, die alone".

I heard once that the writers of Heroes and the writers of Lost knew each other - and that that the shows were sort of "parallel story lines".

It really did stand out to me when Simone asks Nathan to go public - he says no because he knows what he would do in that position - "round them all up and put them on an island somewhere so that he could study them"

DL--I posted a theory about cooperation vs. manipulation on Lost which fits with just what you're saying (and it does fit really well with Shell's post)--hadn't thought about it on Heroes but it makes a lot of sense there as well.

Lost Theory-Manipulation vs. Cooperation

Also remembering a really interesting post about cancer in Lost--but can't remember who posted it--it was fairly recent.

It mentions "Jungian terms" - funny I was thinking it would be cool to find the characters from Heroes in the archetypes list on this site.   

Another something from that: I keep noticeing similar triangles now (Luke/Leia/Han; Harry/Hermione/Ron) 

Would the Heroes triangle be Peter/Simone/Isaac? 

RE Lost posts again - Right, jaz. I wonder, in fact, if that isn’t a fundamental aim of the show, to challenge the dualities we tend to gravitate towards. Good and evil. Science and faith.

Hmmm, this description is awful close to Heroes, I see the Good and evil slant.  I do see Science and faith, but I would change the wording for this show to Physical and Metaphysical because the show really puts a whole lot of emphasis on genetics.  I also see more of a distinct focus on the juxtaposition of Self and Other - but maybe that's because Heroes seem to give more background for a character's choices than I've been able to get out of Lost.  Lost seems to be challenging appearances of a character's choice... Heroes seems to be challenging the types of choices made.

I don't know - maybe that's all mumba jumba.  I'm just thinking out loud.

I think Season 1 that was the triangle--thinking this season it's going to be Hiro/Kensai/the Japanese girl.

Hmm gonna think about the archetypes suggestion. 

These are the archetype-hero connections that occurred to me:

Claire-Daughter: this almost seems to describe Claire's struggle in this season--she's looking for that conceptual framework.

Peter-Son/Daughter: I'm not sure if I have a strong enough sense of him this season--but some combination of those traits seems to describe him from last season.

Nathan-Immortal: again this is sort of a description of last season. This season he's more like a fallen immortal.

Nikki/Jessica-Martyr: martyrdom as the source of their split and power?

Hiro-Innocent

Sylar-Enemy: that's probably too simplistic.

Suresh-Apprentice

Definitely - I agree!  For reference:

The Innocent archetype represents a person who is idealistic and ready and willing to learn what it will take to make the world a better place. Bright, pleasant, and sometimes inspiring, the only real weakness of such a person is her-or-his lack of knowledge about the situation she-or-he is in.

I agree Apprentice

This archetype represents the consummate student. Eager to learn, the Apprentice is a voracious reader, but not just of books. The Apprentice scrutinizes everything, trying to figure out the basic principles that inform how they work.

While the Apprentice is driven and intelligent, those who invoke this archetype can be easily frustrated as they strive for mastery of a specific field. Sometimes the highly intellectual and narrowly defined interests of those who invoke the Apprentice alienate them from others and make maintaining deep personal relationships difficult. 

 - also perhaps a little bit of "The Sage":

The Sage is a somewhat "transcendent" archetype, something many people attempt to be but seldom are. The Sage is one who always knows the right thing to do, and always does it, defining "the right thing" as that which contributes most to the overall health of a given system, and defining "health" as that quality which allows a system to persist and improve.

It seemed to me that Peter was more the Hero in both seasons: 

"a person who is frequently called upon to come to the rescue of others"

In season one he was specifically asked by Hiro to save Claire ... also Simone to some extent, and Mohinder.  He basically goes around making a point to save people. 
Peter season 2 shows:  "the person who too often invokes the Hero archetype can suffer bouts of burnout"

DL, yeah I agree, that is a more accurate description. I wonder if this season he might be slipping more into the Rebel?

I see him as the Rogue:

The Rogue is a somewhat "transcendent" archetype, something many people attempt to be but seldom are. The Rogue also always knows the right thing to do, but "the right thing" is defined as "whatever is in the ultimate best-interest of the Rogue", with "best-interest" usually defined in terms of carnal or otherwise selfish desires.

I can definitely see this. I see elements of the Immortal and Master as well.

Master: "This archetype represents the person whose identity revolves around her-or-his expertise. The Master does, actually, know virtually everything about a given topic, mostly because it is the only thing the Master constantly thinks about."

Immortal: "This archetype represents a person who has been put in a position where they feel they must serve as a paragon. A parent, an older sibling, a celebrity, a politician… all of these people can feel as though they must be superhuman, or appear as such, in order to be successful in fulfilling their daily obligations. Some of them can feed off the feeling that their position does, in fact, make them superhuman."

I don't see Sylar as the Enemy because I don't think he's bitter or hateful - he's greedy.
I don't think Sylar is the Rival because there is a point where he will be satisfied, and it's not about the competiton for him.  He already believes he is "better than others" so this isn't what drives him.

I see Sylar as "The Immortal/Priest"

The Immortal -

When a person who doesn’t actually have any "fans" invokes this archetype, it is very likely a sign of mental instability. When a person who has "fans" invokes this archetype, it can be a good thing if it is done in an honest attempt to inspire and lead. If it is done in the service of one’s ego, however, it can be harmful in a variety of ways.

The aspects of the Priest -

This archetype represents the person who is wholly focused on the supernatural, specifically "paranormal phenomena", etc.   His quest to be "special". The downside to this archetype is that can also be intolerant, condemning, and hateful. Plus, the baser form of the Priest that is focused on celebrity and riches is prone to ruthlessness and the literal worship of other people who seem to have secured popularity and material abundance.  For Sylar this would be himself.

I guess I saw one of Sylar's motivating factors as deep down thinking the others were better than him--he want's to be special and looks to Suresh's father to prove that he is. So I did interpret that as hatred--that he's been denied that special status and the others have it--and then killing them in order to get it (greed).

Hey, another Lost tie-in I just remembered. Sylar's Mom collected snow globes.

That's true but once Sylar figured out his gift... I think he overcame his feelings of low self esteem (and I always thought that he was mentally ill to begin with) by going to the other extreme of self adulation.  He realized that Suresh was not the source of what he could do.  I get the impression that Sylar does not feel as if what makes him special are the gifts that he steals or the special people he kills, but that his gift is that he can take their gifts away.  It is almost a "God-like" power.  This somehow makes him "the most special" of all of the heroes. I don't think that he kills the others for the purpose of destroying them - as is the Enemy's goal:

"The Enemy wants something or someone to be destroyed."  

The hatred that you describe along with this self veneration is what I thought fit in better with "the baser form of the Priest".   

I think the killing is just the means to an end.  Sylar himself mentions that he does not need to acquire all of their powers - implying he would not have to kill them all.  In the flash forward of him (as the President) with Claire he mentioned he's done collecting - all he needs is hers.  I think that this is because he is afraid that someone will be able to take away what he can do - via killing him, again leaving him powerless to control his own fate (he can't be God if he can die).  I also get the impression this is why the writers are playing with taking all of his powers away in the second season.  He didn't kill the woman right away, not because she didn't have powers, but because at first he considered her unimportant and her powers not useful to him.  Now he's discovered that he lost what helped him to overcome his self esteem issues to begin with - his character is in crisis.  It also seemed a little "Lost-like" at the end when the camera shot zoomed back to show that the cabin he was in was surrounded by trees... it looked a lot like the island to me. 

I wonder if they will be trying to show how evolution is always trying to find equilibrium.  His mental illness makes him unstable and I think this suggests that his character will either be extinguished or transformed. 

I stumbled across an interesting coincidence: Punctuated equilibrium (sometimes referred to as punctuated equilibria) is a theory in evolutionary biology, which posits that evolution amongst sexually reproducing species takes place in rapid bursts, separated by long periods of stasis, in which little change occurs.  

There is a theory brought up correcting, in his view, the wide confusion surrounding the theory of punctuated equilibrium. In The Blind Watchmaker Richard Dawkins makes reference to the watchmaker analogy made famous by William Paley in his book Natural Theology. Paley, arguing more than fifty years before Charles Darwin published The Origin of Species, held that the complexity of living organisms was evidence of the existence of a divine creator by drawing a parallel with the way in which the existence of a watch compels belief in an intelligent watchmaker. Dawkins, in contrasting the differences between human design and its potential for planning with the workings of natural selection, therefore dubbed evolutionary processes The Blind Watchmaker. 

After arguing that evolution is capable of explaining the origin of complexity, near the end of the book Dawkins uses this to argue against the existence of God: "a deity capable of engineering all the organized complexity in the world, either instantaneously or by guiding evolution, . . . must already have been vastly complex in the first place . . ." He calls this "postulating organized complexity without offering an explanation." 

I can see Sylar using this as a justification not to cooperate, not to love because there is "no greater good" there is no creation, just complexity, competition and the rankings therein.  

I do see the Daughter archetype with Claire to some extent, but also I think the show is focusing on "the Lover" as Claire is in that transitional age between being a daughter and a woman.  These 2 archetypes share a lot of stuff in common.  I like it because it seems Claire is very much ruled by her emotion at any given moment and she latches onto her causes with passion even though they may not be very well thought through.

I wonder if Claire will flirt with The Rebel some more because of her new found boyfriend?  She's showed hints of these traits when she was upset with her adoptive dad: 

This archetype represents the person who sees her-or-himself as fighting a grave injustice. 

After this episode where she finds her "kindred spirit" - she has moved back into doubting her adoptive father and his past because he has hurt someone she is currently championing.

...it does make me wonder if she will be some part in his demise later on.

Dang woman! I think you were spot on with those.

With your last point. In the picture with Bennett lying dead on the floor, wasn't there a couple kissing in the background?

Heh, Heroes characters as archetypes? Great idea.

I like your comparisons, jaztype.

I think of Aldo as the Patron. (season one) More so the downside feeling as he thought he was an unnecessary obstacle in Hiro's 'save the world' journey. He separates himself from becoming a distraction. But I think this aspect of the archetype was a useful tool in helping Hiro follow the right path.

Micah--I think of him as the Genius. According to the description of this archetype, it could be interesting to see how Micah's character evolves if his empirical mannerism is the dominating one.

Yeah I thought Nathan was seeing Peter too. I wonder if his power has changed? He does have that whole FF Jack thing going on you're right. And there's certainly this sibling/protector theme going on generally isn't there with Nathan/Peter and this new character and her brother. (I don't think they're connected to anyone yet.) I thought probably Peter had regenerated somehow--became the man who feel to earth--and he's being kept by whoever is represented by that symbol which I'm thinking at the moment is not "The Company" but someone from the older group of heroes. Also whoever this is must have some kind of dampening power, I would assume, to keep Peter imprisoned. Those Irish accents needed a little work though.

When all is said and done, it won't be the Company or Sylar that is the biggest threat. I'm sure it will be the evil cheerleaders!

Hmm...  re:  "I thought probably Peter had regenerated somehow--became the man who feel to earth--and he's being kept by whoever is represented by that symbol which I'm thinking at the moment is not "The Company" but someone from the older group of heroes."

The Hiatian.  Maybe he isn't responsible for hiding Peter but I'm starting to think the Haitan had something to do with Peter after the explosion.  Peter was wearing that same necklace that the Hiatan wore... which would make sense that Peter now has amnesia.

How he got different powers... I dunno... perhaps that was a power that he absorbed during the explosion, but the explosion caused him to lose all of his other absorbed powers...*headache...* 

The greater good seems be a strong theme also.  The term was mentioned by Surech's (?) "partner" at their dinner meeting. 

Heh... I'd go with Sylar over the evil cheerleaders any day!

Out of the mental/spiritual/emotional/physical realms - the physical world is of the most importance to community, as it's where individual behaviors overlap.  The physicality of the powers manifested in the show, I think are possibly important to the plot. 

I do find it interesting that Claire's powers just through their nature seem to bring positive things and a postive advantage for social change to tilt towards the scale of cooperation.  She can physically counteract a violent event without the act having it's most extreme violent outcome.  I'm guessing that's intentional.  

It would be harder for her to use this evolutionary skill to harm someone else - unless she uses it as a charade and causes emotional, spiritual or mental harm.

Yeah, Nathan not flying gives me the impression that... uh, well, he's a drunk.  And drinking and flying is awesome.  Ok I got nothing on that.  I'm not completely convinced that Nathan saw Peter in the mirror though. Nathan would have been burnt as well. Though Nathan seems to think that Peter might still be alive while his mother does not.  Maybe the reflection is Peter.  Maybe it's the evil cheerleader powers. ; )

I liked this episode though.  A lot of good came from it. 

Peter discovers some of his powers (he's got electric powers... hmmm, where did he get that... or rather, whom??). Either way, Peter gave me a strong inclination to call him Jason Bourne last night. 

Claire cut off her toe and grew it back! She's awesome. 

Kensei has Claire's powers. Wha..??

The Haitan and Mr. Bennet reunites.  Good or bad?

The 'Wonder Twins' seemed to work well together.  He's the healer to her curse? But both are dangerous when seperated?

Claire cutting her toe off and the comment the biology teacher made about us not needing our pinky toes made me think--HEY--four-toed statue! More advanced race? Or maybe Hiro takes Clarie back in time, she cuts off her toe, Hiro stops time while primitive civilization gets a good oogle at Claire. She becomes the basis for their goddess worship.

I think Peter came back kinda nice and buffy, whereas Nathan looks thin and dishevelled--still think some kind of exchange might be taking place.

Could Kensei be a distant ancestor of Nathan and Claire? Or are all these powers only supposed to be recent.

I think the Haitian/Bennet reuniting is cool--I like the whole subversion of the company story.

I didn't think the wonder twin guy was dangerous when they are separated. He looks like he's absorbing her darkness. I wonder if there's a limit to that before it has an effect on him. Is her power going to be the equivalent of the radioactive guy from last year?

Heh... Claire's pinky toe/4 toed statue/statue of Uluru/the Black Rock... sigh... 

Hmm... yeah absorbs... but the wonder twin guy seems to heal the affected in the process, too. (the woman)

Kensei, yeah, I've thought about that.  I don't think these powers are all recent.  I mean, I thought at first every "hero" has it's own unique power... now it seems some have the same power but more evolved than others. Which would suggest the experience they've had with their power.   

One thing... the twins of the Wonder Twins is the second set of twins in the series.  Except they're both alive, unlike Nikki/Jessica.   Just wondering if that's any part in the show. 

Seeing that Kensei can self heal like Claire, would you say that Claire is a descendant of Kensei? Grandpappy Kensei? ;-)

PS Now that Hiro is in the 17th century and has fallen for that girl, what do you think will be the aftermath of that?

Heh, clever!

A friend of mine brought that up while watching the last episode.... but I'm not too sure.  The powers themselves don't seem to be hereditary... just the fact that they have powers.  Take Micah, J/N, and DL Family for example. 

However, just like with J/N... alter ego.   Kensei said that Hiro is his better half or whatever.  Nathan's transformation this season... he never really accepted his power I don't think.  Peter is scared that what he finds in that box will expose him to his bad persona.  So he indulges (for now) creating a new life to escape his so-called bad past.  Claire always wants to be useful.  What she might do or be in on with her father's death... if that comes about.  Maya's and Alejandro's powers work best when they're together.   If I didn't know any better... I'd say duality/good vs. evil is a strong theme in the show.  

Sorry, didn't mean to tangent off your question... I do think it's likely that Kensei could be blood related to one or more of the Heroes *because* he has powers... perhaps the older ones.   So naturally, he might be related to her indirectly. 

Hiro's feelings for that girl seem to allude to the validation that he was meant to stay longer.  But my theory is that Hiro, the time traveler, is a likely candidate to mess the timeline up. If anyone could do it, it would be him.   Aaaand I don't know which way really to sway yet. 

Just one more thought about the wonder twins--and the hooded guy we've seen attacking the older generation of heroes. The woman who was helping them across the border said something like she (the female twin) could kill the devil himself. Will she be the means of defeating the hooded guy if he's the main source of "evil" (well if those designations even hold) for the season?

I think the male twin heals through that absorption--his eyes seem to go dark as if he's taking it all into himself. I'm just thinking that's gonna have repercussions.

Just a poll: Does anyone here think...

Hiro is Kensei?  

Kensei is Kane? 

Neither? 

Kane is the hooded guy, yes?

Kensai anagram=is Kane

Hiro possibly brings him back? And his killing of the older Heroes--revenge for something from the past, or result of some conflict or change that Hiro brought about in the far past. And interestingly, not clear who's the bad guy there--Kane or the older Heroes.

Oh, I don't know if Kane is the hooded guy.  I don't think it's been established who he is yet. 

The Kane is Kensei theory is a popular one I think... so I was just curious where  each of us stood.

Kensei doesn't seem to be who he really is, so I say Kane because Kensei is said to (live for a long time.)  Kane is also described as being "one thousand years old" so it's been said that these characters could be one and the same. 

And your theory is certainly plausible... and that would go with my brainwashed idea that Hiro messes something up.  Just like he said he would if he stayed longer.  Muahahahahahahaha!

I must have missed something... where was a man named Kane mentioned? In the Kensei legends or something? Such that you're expecting that as Hiro helps Kensei, Hiro will take his place as the legend, and Kensei will become the legend's enemy?

It makes sense to me to think that the hero Kensei was always Hiro.

I do have to say... it literally hurt me to see the look on Hiro's face as he watched the swordmaker's daughter run to Kensei.  It was painful... it just seemed wrong.  Hiro is the one she really loves! 

I know I'm being silly to get so wrapped up in all this... but I hold out hope that the writers let something nice happen to Hiro.

Kane was not mentioned in the show.  A friend of mine showed me a theory on Kane/Kensei.  I could have sworn I heard that name in the show. (maybe I did, I dunno) But upon trying to find that website for you, I've just read that "Kane" was a spoiler character.  A character that is supposed to come this season.  And the theory I read was based off that spoiler. (I was unaware also--I'm sorry ) 

Yeah, your points are valid I think if that theory is correct.    

But I think it's just as likely that this Kane guy is the hooded villian.

*sigh*