Idolatry

I don't think true idolatry is what you're talking about there. Making idols as children is not true idolatry because you're just making stuff and you know it's just stuff. Even if that stuff has/had a fond place in your heart, it's still probably not idolatry. The rug/picture example is absolutely not idolatry, because you did not actually fear the rug or worship the picture in your heart.

I don't think that what you're seeing as a developmental stage is really idolatry. I think it is using the non-real to simulate the real in preparation for dealing with the real. In other words, it's playing. There's nothing wrong with that. In fact, I think trying to shield a kid from doing those things would be really damaging.

True idolatry is harmful, not helpful. Again, while I'm certainly always going to talk about it from my religious angle, it is in no way restricted to religion.

I agree, true idolatry is harmful; and maybe you're right that the childhood example isn't accurate. I guess I was thinking of it as something which some people never are able to grow out of. But, no, I didn't mean to imply that I would ever try to shield a kid from doing that sort of play.

But don't you think it is about people's inability to deal with moral uncertainty and mortality?

"I guess I was thinking of it as something which some people never are able to grow out of. [...] But don't you think it is about people's inability to deal with moral uncertainty and mortality?" -- jaz

Sometimes, you need this kind of remark for you to realize the obvious: we're still kids. We still fear the same ole things our ancestors in the caves --if you believe that was the case-- did. So... where's all that "progress" we humans are supposed to have achieved? Huh?

Anyway, wouldn't that be true about religions, too? What's the difference? One man's religion is another man's idolatry, in my opinion...

You guys make me think and I love it. I've had to really process all this.

I think people need something to focus on. Idols and religions can fill that need. One might obsess over baseball statistics while another fantasizes about Star Wars (NSFW). Sure, some idols are used to address or allay fears, but that is a subset.

I don't really see any religion itself as being an idol. It comes down to the individual who follows it. Some people only go to church to put on a show. Some people go to church because they're afraid not to. It would be hard to call either idolatry.

That's the point. The nature of the aforesaid something is different depending on the individual, and says much more about the individual itself than about the something.

Some people may be happy "shielding" themselves behind baseball, Star Wars, Lord of the Rings or LOST. Some other people may need to "shield" themselves behind something more spiritual. But, all in all, we're talking shields here. Things we put between ourselves and reality, responsibility, mistery or whatever may cause us distress.

I don't know, maybe I'm "shielding" myself behind an "atheism-steel wall"...

I'm not completely disagreeing with the shielding aspect, I just think that to consider all idols as shields is an overstatement of the "all cats are mammals therefore all mammals are cats" variety.

For instance, your viewpoint would describe my Christianity as my idol. If that's the case, then what is it shielding me from? Being a Christian is something I can be, will be, and am persecuted for, so it's not protecting me from that. I know perfectly well that bad things are just as likely to happen to Christians as anyone else, so I don't expect it to shield me from calamity. Christianity has taught me to face all my responsibilities and challenges head-on, so it's certainly not something I can retreat into as a shield from everyday life. It's not even a shield from going to hell, as being saved is what prevents that, not the Christian religion. So, if Christianity and Christ are my idols, what are they shielding me from?

I don't deal with absolutes, my friend. But I'm guessing I'm not making myself clear.

I don't think baseball would protect anyone from the miseries of life. But some people may find relief in baseball because it distracts them from the nasty pieces of their life. "Yeah, my job sucks, but hey, my team is on a winning streak! Yay!" That kind of things.

Religions may do the same trick, even on a broader field. "Yeah, there's war, and hunger, and sickness... but God loves us all. Yay!" Of course, I'm oversimplifying.

Maybe the word "shield" was a poor choice. Maybe the word "cushion" is a better one: life still hits us hard, but its blows are somehow softened by our little "relievers".

Anyway, I don't think "religions" = "idols", it just doesn't make sense to me. egami said and "idol" is something we place before God. As I'm an atheist --as you already know-- I can't think of putting anything before nothing...

People don't necessarily love their idols either. Some feel enslaved by them. Some song going around a few years ago had the lyric, "You're a slave to the money, then you die." (too lazy to look up the reference). I think idolatry could be considered a superset of obsession, in that all obsessions involve idolatry but not all idols are obsessions.

One instance of idolatry I see that is definitely not an obsession is the way some people treat printed matter. For some people, if they read it in a book or a newspaper or on a website, then they feel it must be true because "they" wouldn't let a person print falsity as fact, would "they"? The idea of any "authors" being "authoritative" on any given subject that person chooses to write about has led to an idolization of sorts of these writers.

I completely define idolatry as obsession - whether that obsession is directly tied to the subject matter of the obsessive behavior or not. 

Where I would be mincing words here would be on how I define "obsession".   Aptly summed up by wordnet: "an unhealthy and compulsive preoccupation with something or someone ".   

Dictionary.com

So - obsession is not just the act of obsessing or the subject of that obsession  - the definition includes both and could be used interchangeably with the terms idolatry and idol, given the sentence structure. 

The example you give about printed matter actually does classify as an obsession (and idolatry) to me as I use the terms.  The debate about what part of that scenario is the idol itself is completely subjective and dependent upon the obsessive's reason for engaging in that behavior.   In any matter - this type of behavior - whatever the idol is in this scenario is definitely "unhealthy" and thus obsessive.

There could be further distinction made on different types of idolatry, it's true ... that the idolization that has a "direct payoff" is more often the type of idolatry that people "love"  to engage in and thus don't feel "enslaved to" -- to me this subset would be equivalent to addiction.  But that's more about what's feeding the obsession than what the idol is.  It tells you how strong the delusion is that the person creates in order to indulge in their obsessive behavior because in the end - all obsession will have you enslaved.

That sounds like a fair comparision to me.

Copy that ESi...and I love it...and all of you.

I disagree with the video's contention, though, that memorizing the details of Star Wars isn't useful in one's life!

“fear is the path to the dark side. fear leads to anger. anger leads to hate. hate leads to suffering. ~ yoda”

I mean, who can't make use of that ?

In simple terms, to me idolatry is simply placing something before God...Paul wrote in Col 3:5 that covetousness is idolatry. I think when you want something more than God that becomes idolatry...historically engraven images are associated with the term, but I think if you study most religious representation of these images you'll find that they are almost always directly linked to sinful desires in their representation and that is completely disregarding the fact that the worship of them in and of itself is sinful in the eyes of the God.

I think in 1st Corinthians Paul warns Christians against this and reflects back on their past transgressions of this sin as an example...that passage coincidentally is talking primarily of sexual sin and making your physical body a temple for God. Which, to me, basically implies putting lusts of the flesh (not just sexual) ahead of your love for God.

It could be. I can see where idolatry could be stretched into the "Devil made me do it" argument. Idolizing an ideal falls well within the purview of idolatry. For some reason, I feel that what you're referring to is something different. I'm just drawing a blank right now on what it is. Something along the lines of "religion for religion's sake" or the "nobody lives forever so to hell with the consequences" mentalities.

Are you referring to things like guys who just never stop playing video games? Woops hold on there's a blue guy in my base. AFKFAS (/y i'm in yer base, killin yer d00dz!). I mean, err..., what?

I'm starting to see some overlap between the topic of idolatry and the topic of the Western individualistic narcissistic mindset in this discussion.

When a person sees himself as the most important thing going, then he envisions himself as being the god-figure, effectively idolizing himself. The things he surrounds himself with, whether it be persons, animals, or objects of his desire, become his "subjects" or "disciples" in his own mind. When those things are no longer sufficient, they are discarded.

"When a person sees himself as the most important thing going, then he envisions himself as being the god-figure, effectively idolizing himself. " - ESi

"American Idol" immediately popped in my head. Just the name itself represents society's definition of "idol" as something that is normal and approved of. I don't watch it but the concept of the show includes talented people competing for fame and pride where the public casts votes on who is the best singer - is it still idolatry if you are a viewer who doesn't "idolize" the show, but in some lesser form take pleasure in the simple act of watching? I think I'd say most definitely yes. 

... in suggesting that idolatry and Western narcissism DO overlap.  I mean… isn’t ALL sin inherently narcissistic?

I suppose, though, ESi, that's sorta what you're saying also...