My thoughts on 4.6...

... are right here... please read, enjoy, and comment in this forum!  Smile

And you might as well expect edits... there's always some thought I had that I forgot to mention... Smile

Just a couple of thoughts....

I thought I'd throw this out there for the collective JIMGPies to consider. (JIMGPies... sounds like we're a bunch of gypsies only with a rosary instead of an accordion!!) It's simply an observation, not really a theory.

In "The Constant" when Desmond was flashing back and forth between 2004 and 1996 he seemed to do so at random times. He often started speaking in one time and finished the comment in another time. But when he had a purpose he seemed to be able to remain in one place long enough to complete his task (i.e. find Faraday at Oxford, travel to the auction and speak with Widmore, convince Penny to give him her phone number etc.) So is this a sign that Desmond is learning to control this ability or does having a purpose and a direction allow the "jump" to continue until the task is completed? I'm hoping it's Desmond learning to control the jumps, which would seem more in tune with Mrs Hawking's seeming abilities and also provide much more interesting possibilities for Desmond in future episodes.

 

Also I think we've sort of gotten off track with what the constant is supposed to be. If I remember correctly (and I admit I need to watch the episode again to verify) but didn't Faraday say that he thought that Eloise had an aneurysm. He said that her brain "short circuited" (or something to that affect) because she couldn't tell what was happening. She didn't have a reference point or as he put it, an anchor (where the hell's Dan Rather when you need him?) So isn't the purpose of the constant then simply to allow the traveler to keep track of which time period they are in? It would seem that a human would be able to do this simply by understanding that they had this ability. If it got too complicated and they needed a constant as Faraday suggests then I don't see how Penny is going to solve anything for Desmond since she's not part of his life between 1996 and 2001 when he sees her at the stadium. If he travels to 1998 wouldn't he need of a new constant that is available at that time? Man this show is going to give me an aneurysm!!

Thoughts

Fellow JIMGPie,

(I love the idea of us as a roving bunch of gypsies--although the first thing that came to mind when I saw "JIMGPie" was a bunch of black and white birds :-)

Learning to control his ability or having a purpose--I think it's probably both. Part of learning being to know the purpose of your own abilities. And Mrs. Hawking seems to want to give him a big 'ol purpose when she sees him. But I still think she's lying.

The Constant: I don't see the objection that she's not part of his life between 1996 and 2001. Physically he might not see her, but I'm sure she dominates his thoughts and feelings and that seems to be what the constant is about--something you care deeply about, not something you are in everyday contact with. (Dan Rather Smile -- maybe that's time travellin' Dan Faraday's real identity -- so he could always ask "Which Dan would you rather?" hyuck, hyuck....)

What do you suppose...

...JIMGPie tastes like?

RE; Toughts

The Constant: I don't see the objection that she's not part of his life between 1996 and 2001. Physically he might not see her, but I'm sure she dominates his thoughts and feelings and that seems to be what the constant is about--something you care deeply about, not something you are in everyday contact with.

OK I need to watch that episode again! I thought the "constant" for Desmond was the fact that Penny loved him. But when he leaves her in 1996 she's really pissed at him ... oh wait never mind it just clicked!! DUH!!! Embarassed

 

Dan Rather Smile -- maybe that's time travellin' Dan Faraday's real identity -- so he could always ask "Which Dan would you rather?" hyuck, hyuck....

Jaz as much as I love a bad joke I'm afraid you leave me no choice here...

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!! That was really terrible! Laughing

 

Dan Rather

... I bet we could work that into a routine.

That was some good time, classic Punnery. 

Jaz I nominate you to head the Gag Department:

Gag Department Hooded Sweatshirt

“And how many hours a day did you do lessons?” said Alice, in a hurry to change the subject.
“Ten hours the first day,” said the Mock Turtle, “nine the next, and so on.”
“What a curious plan!” exclaimed Alice.
“That's the reason they're called lessons,” the Gryphon remarked: “because they lessen from day to day.”

Gag Department

Heh, you guys think Stuck is good?.....

If you really want to see a comic strip, you should see me in the shower...

(barump bump)

Re: Gag

Good one Jaz! As Santa Claus once said, "You Sleigh me!!!"

Hey not so fast...

Agent does the head of the Gag Dept get to wear that cool sweatshirt?

 

 

Does the head of the Gag Dept get to wear that cool sweatshirt?

But of course!

Vaudeville U

Hey Jukin, I think we are all enrolled...

Unless we don't want' to belong to a college that would have us as students.Wink

I love that school!!

What do you mean Jaz? I love that school! It's a beautiful campus with lots of trees and plenty of wildlife. In fact one morning I shot an elephant in my pajamas. How he got in my pajamas I don't know.

 

Ole Groucho is the greatest...

But I rather like this one:

Q: "What do you get when you cross an insomniac, an agnostic, and a dyslexic?"
A: "Someone who stays up all night wondering if there is a Dog."

Laughing

Oh you can say that again DaBot!!

A few of my favorite Grouchoisms:

"Funny, I've met a lot of pin-up girls but I've never been able to pin one down."

"You're the most beautiful woman I've ever seen, and that's not saying much for you."

"I have nothing but respect for you and not much of that."

"He's so full of alcohol if you put a lit wick in his mouth, he'd burn for three days."

"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an exception."

"A child of five could understand this... fetch me a child of five I can't make heads or tails out of this!"

"From the moment I picked up your book until the moment I laid it down I was convulsed with laughter. Someday I intend on reading it."

"I've had a perfectly wonderful evening, but this wasn't it."

"Behind every successful man is a woman and behind her is his wife."

"I married your mother because I wanted children. Imagine my disappointment when you came along."

"Pardon me while I have a strange interlude."

"Oh, you're from Wales? Do you know a fellow named Jonah? He lived in whales for a while."


Yes, I am a Marxist. Of the Grouchist tendency ;-)

My all-time favourite: "Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it, misdiagnosing it, and then misapplying the wrong remedies."

Me too :-)

"Military justice is to justice what military music is to music."

"Those are my principles....if you don't like them, I have others."

"Let us lodge with my fleas in the hills, I mean flee to my lodge in the hille."

:oD

You guys are awesome!

Aw, Mr. J...

... you TRULY ARE one of us.  Smile

What?

I thinks I'm missing a couple pieces here 'n there...

(And that was heelarious Joookin!)

LOL

You know in this episode it was confirmed that they have no more chickens, and thus no more eggs in Locketopia. And then I realized that in Juliet's flashback, when Juliet is crying 'cause she lost another pregnant woman--the woman's name was...HENRIETTA!!! Laughing

(I know, I know, I'm a sick person...that DEBS test was right...)

HAHA!

You guys are extremely funny today. Laughing

Oh, VERY excellent catch by the way...

Mebbe they oughta change the title of the ep from "woman" to "chick".... "The Other Chick"!!

Videotape & Records

Just noticing the use of videotape instead of DVDs, and records instead of CDs. Is this because DVDs and CDs are read using lasers and the lasers would be affected by the electromagnetic forces?

What would be the effect of those forces on computers? And does that have to do with the manual entry of the numbers?

Effect: Disaster

Unless appropiately isolated, an electromagnetic field so high as the one the Island is supposed to have would mean no computer would work at all.

But of course it would mean no radio --including cell phones and walkies-- communications would be possible... So maybe the "huge electromagnetic field" is a fraud, or maybe it's vanished after turning the failsafe key...

Effect: Destruction

Well, we know the electromagnetism had an effect when Desmond released it.  During release - magnetic objects flung to the walls, the crumpling of the 108 timer, etc - the destruction of the hatch is precisely what changed John's mind that not pushing the button was a mistake... "I was wrong."  And remember Tom telling Jack in the middle of Ben's surgery that when the sky turned purple they lost all communication.

Yeah, yeah... I just...

... thought it was weird, all those computers at work at the Swan, all these communication gadgets at the Flame and the video vigilance thingamabobs at the Pearl... shouldn't be working. Really. It's not a case of "yeah, that's why they must enter the 'numbers' manually..." It's a case of "they shouldn't be entering numbers at all, because the friggin' computer shouldn't be working!"

Am I making any sense?

Yeah...

...you make sense, lol. 

My guess is that's why churnoble was even mentioned in the show in the first place - because the station was "housing" something that if leaked out, could be destructive to all, including all the gidgets and gadgets and thingmabobs.

However, it IS only a TV show... Laughing

Videotape & Records

They're stuck in the 80's!

I do not know the answer. But I thought the manual entry into the computer was the nod to the Skinner experiment?

Stuck in the 80s

Heh, cool T-Shirt. Looks a little like it could be Jack modelling it. :-)

Oh and the manual entry being Skinnerian--I think that's what Locke believed after seeing the viewing set up at the Pearl. But the fact that the surveillance records at the Pearl all just wound up dumped somewhere seemed to imply that that was false and that in some ways it was actually the Pearl that was the Skinnerian experiment.

A few additional 4.6 thoughts/questions

Juliet was in on Ben's plans deeper than I had thought--She knew about the list and was helping take care of the kids from the tail section.

Harper--just a couple thoughts about her name. A harper would be someone who announces the chieftan of the clan--that seems fitting for what she's doing in this episode--she's Ben's spokesperson both in the past and present. Also made me think of Harper Lee the author of To Kill A Mockingbird--which was alluded to in "The Cost of Living." Had a theory about that episode around the themes of innocence/mercy/justice and the connection to that novel here.

After Ben tells Locke the identity of the man on the boat, Locke lets him free.  Is this just because Locke had made this deal?  Or is the identity so shocking and in some way reveals how much power Ben has that Locke lets him go?  Somehow Michael would be a letdown.  I speculated below that it might be Randy Nations or Anthony Cooper.  Now I'm leaning more toward Cooper...just wondering why we never saw his body. 

Kate gets whacked over the head by Charlotte and then when Charlotte tries the same stunt with Juliet--Juliet wins out. Then Charlotte and Juliet walking together later looked like quite the formidable pair. I feel we are moving into the more female dominant part of the year.

Did anyone think there was significance to Ben's analogy about the mold that looked like Jesus on a house in Gainesville? I guess one thing I thought of was how Tallahassee has been mentioned several times--not that far from Gainesville. Symbolically it's something that grows out of decay winding up looking like the image of salvation and rebirth. (Somehow I feel I should be clanging the cowbells at this point Smile)

Why is Dan the one at the computer--'cause he's visited the future or past so knows what to type in? And why did Dharma have this chemical gas storage facility?

The fact that Goodwin got sent to his death deliberately makes me think that my idea connected to Ben similarly getting rid of Ethan might have been right--getting rid of Ethan because he had gotten Ethan to return Claire and didn't want anyone else to know.

When Ben says that if his people wanted him they would have stormed the barracks already--thought that was a pretty obvious lie--he's right where he wants to be. So I think he has some way to communicate with them.

Couple comments in a rush

"Why is Dan the one at the computer--'cause he's visited the future or past so knows what to type in?" --jaz

Well, he sure didn't seem to know what he was doing. Lewis, on the other hand, seemed pretty confident on Faraday being able to do the job.

"And why did Dharma have this chemical gas storage facility?" --jaz

I'm uncertain about this. I thought Ben sent Goodwin to set all the gas thingy at "the Tempest", and that's how he got his chemical burn. But why should Dharma have all that gas on the Island, to begin with? Can't imagine. Except... maybe... they used it before coming to the Island, to get rid of the "abundant and diverse wildlife" --Marvin Candle, or whatever his name may be, dixit.

Dan not knowing what he was doing

That doesn't seem to negate the fact that he might have been chosen to do it based on some mind travel ability--just that his memory of what he takes from that travel is very sketchy.

I see where you are coming from

In fact, that fits alright with the card thingy, mentioned below. It's very probable Lewis was testing how well did Faraday remember a future event, prior to their 'trip' to the Tempest.

What I don't get about the whole thing is... alright, the gas has been there, more or less, for as long as Juliet has been on the Island, and there was no problem with it. So, why would the Freighties feel the urge to 'render it inert'?

Why render it inert?

Charlotte asked Juliet in a point-proving kinda way if Ben could release the gas, would he not do it and kill everyone on the island.  "We know he's done it before."  So I figured to 'render it inert', they had to disable it so Ben couldn't use it, but in doing so there would be a risk of putting everyone in danger.

Actually, that's where I'm missing something... is she talking about the Dharma purge?  Because... didn't they manually gas everyone?  Or was there a different time Ben purged the island? (Maybe why Kelvin had to wear the protective suit to begin with?)

"Manually gas"...

Well, I took it as if they were talking about the "purge". At first, it seemed to me as if Ben didn't think of an "automatic gasing gadget" until after Juliet arrives to the Island, but right now I'm not so sure. That might even be a "Dharma gadget" --I mean pre-Ben,-- for all I know.

Anyway, Lewis' lines go like this: "Juliet... look me in the eye and tell me you are certain that Benjamin Linus wouldn't use this gas to kill everyone on this island!
We know he's used it before."
So it's about the gas, not about the Tempest Gaz-o-Matic.

Dan not knowing what he was doing

I rewatched the episode without falling asleep this time and I kept that in mind... and was thinking of the memory game with the cards... it does seem like a possibility.

Dan and the Cards

I thought the card game thing with Dan was more about psychic ability than about memory... but who knows... it was kinda vague the way the shot that.

Psychic ability

Yeah, I dunno... maybe like flashes or something... I suggested that before... but it was becoming more aware to me that he does have memory problems. But ah who knows.

The gas

Hey guys, I didn't get to watch the episode until this weekend so I'm a little late with some of the comments here. I was wondering about Faraday being responsible for altering the gas as well. The freighties obviously know about the gas and are prepared to deal with it (i.e. the gas masks) but when the team was put together why wasn't a chemist included for this task? Seems like a rather important undertaking with significant repercussions -- if they fail every living person on the island will die. So why are they placing their lives in the hands of a Physicist instead of a Chemist? I think jaz may be onto something with the time theory. Otherwise it doesn’t make sense - especially given that whatever the rest of their mission is, they opted to undertake this task first. Everything therefore depends on Faraday’s success here.

As for why they would need to make the gas inert I think the answer is simply to remove a weapon from Ben’s arsenal. What kind of electrical generator produces a lethal off gas as part of the process? I'm not an electrical engineer, but there's none that I know of. And certainly if power generation was the main purpose of the facility Dharma/Ben could find a way to do that without creating such a lethal byproduct. It seems far more likely that the production of the gas is the real purpose and the production of electricity is a secondary aspect. SO why do they want or need the gas? Charlotte said that Ben has used the gas before, so I'm guessing that is what was used in the purge. That would mean that this facility and the creation of the gas is not his doing but was set up this way by Dharma. Again the question is why? Were they planning to wipe out all of mankind in a sort of modern day "great flood"?

Edit: When I looked up alternate meanings of the term Tempest (aside from Shakespeare's play) I found an interesting use of the word on Wikipedia.

TEMPEST is a codename referring to investigations and studies of compromising emanations (CE). Compromising emanations are defined as unintentional intelligence-bearing signals which, if intercepted and analyzed, disclose the information transmitted, received, handled, or otherwise processed by any information-processing equipment.

Compromising emanations consist of electrical or acoustical energy unintentionally emitted by any of a great number of sources within equipment/systems which process national security information. This energy may relate to the original message, or information being processed, in such a way that it can lead to recovery of the plaintext. Laboratory and field tests have established that such CE can be propagated through space and along nearby conductors. The interception/propagation ranges and analysis of such emanations are affected by a variety of factors, e.g., the functional design of the information processing equipment; system/equipment installation; and, environmental conditions related to physical security and ambient noise. The term "compromising emanations" rather than "radiation" is used because the compromising signals can, and do, exist in several forms such as magnetic- and/or electric-field radiation, line conduction, or acoustic emissions.[1]

The term TEMPEST is often used broadly for the entire field of Emission Security or Emanations Security (EMSEC). The term TEMPEST was coined in the late 60's and early 70's as a codename for the NSA operation to secure electronic communications equipment from potential eavesdroppers[2].

The U.S. government denies that the term TEMPEST is an acronym or has any particular meaning[3], however various backronyms have been suggested, laconically, including "Transmitted Electro-Magnetic Pulse / Energy Standards & Testing" "Telecommunications ElectroMagnetic Protection, Equipments, Standards & Techniques", "Transient ElectroMagnetic Pulse Emanation STandard"[4] and "Telecommunications Electronics Material Protected from Emanating Spurious Transmissions"[5] or, jokingly, Tiny ElectroMagnetic Particles Emitting Secret Things.

 

 

"Tiny ElectroMagnetic Particles Emitting Secret Things"...

...hahaha! That was cute.

VERY, very interesting information Jukin...

To add on, keep in mind that Harper was SOMEHOW sent by Ben to convince Juliet to kill Charlotte and Daniel if they try to complete their task at the Tempest.  Suggesting that the gas would have been an improvising tool if all else fails.  And I do wonder if when Ben said every single living person will die, if HE was alluding to the release of the gas if he can't stop the waging war between him and Widmore and Co. - (I thought the similarity in Ben's comment to Jack and Ms. Hawking's comment to Des were alluding to the same eventual "apocolyptic" thing.  Buuut maybe not.)

Tempest

"Tiny ElectroMagnetic Particles Emitting Secret Things"--sounds like Smokie to me--a cloud of particles and it does carry information of some kind shown in the visual flashes. Harper--a messenger for Ben--also Smokie? Does Smokie pick up compromising emanations from the brain, and then manifest to deliver messages?

4.6

Considering this was a Juliet-centric episode, I was excited that the focus also stayed on Ben... and revealed to us a very different side of Ben than we've seen... a very twisted Ben. This was a very dark episode for him. "Because you're mine!" - Wow!  That entire scene, both Ben and Juliet, was so intense.  And I do so like the inverse between Desmond's passionate love story and Ben's possessive love affair with Juliet.  Ahem, we thought John was lonesome in the bottom of the dark deep trench...

Heh, you're right the episode didn't reveal anything, just more or less confirmed preconceived notions. Like... um, who's Ben's man again?? John redundantly asked. Ben told him he'd want to... sit.. down? Yet, we never learned! GRR! Harper's (she looked like an alien!) comment that Ben is just where she wants to be, obviously paralleling Miles exact comment to Kate... ooookay...

Harper just showed up and disappeared along with the whispers. Automatically I thought she was dead and was reminiscent of Yemi or Ana, etc showing themselves to people. However, we know she is still alive after Flight 815 crashed. She definitely has information I wouldn't mind Sayid getting out of her.

Was the man Widmore captured Micheal?

Faraday recognizes Juliet & Fate to the Rescue!

Both Charlotte and Faraday immediately recognized Juliet!  She then (I think) recognized them.  Does this suggest, as I suspect that it does, that Daniel and Charlotte may be part of Dharma?  Or does it only suggest that they were recruited by Ben (in much the same way Juliet was) and they have now turned against him?  Where and why do they know Juliet?  On or off the island?  Is it possible Faraday and Charlotte have actually been to the island before?  

Juliet confirmed the battle against Ben is about to begin.  We think we know why - (the purge) and we think we know who - (Widmore.)  Does that mean Widmore is connected to Dharama, or does it simply mean Dharma and Widmore have teamed up to get Ben? 

It seems that Ben has gone to extraordinary measures to protect the island's identity from the outside world, but he has failed.  What does Ben's failure really say about how "good" or how "bad" he really is?    

The island needs to be saved.  Ben has failed.  Perhpas FATE stepped in and  sent both Desmond and flight 815 to the rescue!          

Ben protecting the island

Yeah, I think Daniel and Charlotte know Juliet from meeting her amongst all the other Losties.

Ben protecting the island from the outside world... I do think he has failed and had to improvise. He manipulated Locke into not pushing the button in the hatch so as to knock out all communication. "Let" Locke blow up the sub, I'm willing to bet he was counting on Locke to blow up the Flame station. All suggesting he wanted to seclude the outside world from the island at all costs (except for the LG station). All of that to prevent the outside world from finding the island - which it seems that's exactly what he doesn't want...

...unless he PLANNED on leaving the island again. We know he has *a* way off, somehow, because of all the passports to different countries. And he wasn't ON the island in Sayid's flashforward. Aaand it seems he's still having to fight in order to protect the island even then.

Perhaps fate has stepped in. As speculated before, Desmond seems to be Ben's "wild card", now more than ever - he told John that he doesn't know HOW Widmore found the island, just that he has. If he genuinely does not know about Desmond, he's already his wild card. We have no idea if he knows Des's relationship to Widmore.

After watching this last ep, I think Widmore is the Economist.

Yes, of course, Juliet was

Yes, of course, Juliet was on the beach with both Charlotte and Faraday!  

It shocked me, too...

... at first. Then I remembered Juliet was with Jack and Sayid from the start, when they got to the chopper. At least Faraday was there. Later Sayid exchanges Straume and Lewis, so I guess Juliet knows them both.

Ben...

Oh man, Ben kills me. So after last night's episode, Ben seemed even MORE evil than ever. Yet I will say that I think there is a huge puzzle piece in Ben's story that we are missing that will perhaps change our perspective on him and his motives. Still he is a real piece of work. What he did to Goodwin... What he said to Juliet... that scene where he brought Juliet to see Goodwin's body... Oh Man! She is completely HORRIFIED too not only learn that Ben actually thinks that she is HIS (ugh, gives me chills) but also what lengths Ben will go to in order to get what he wants. He looks at her and says, "You're MINE!" (CAH-REEEE-PYY!!) and then he says, "I'll give you a moment." WHAT? Are you KIDDING ME? He totally creeps her out and then says that like he's being polite. The writers crack me up with the lines they give Ben. I had to laugh at the end, when Ben walks across the yard and Sawyer and Hurley are dumb founded. Ben says, " See you at dinner." LOL! UGH! I wish I knew more about BEN... He so intriguing to me!!! After last night's episode, I really think the book "The Bad Twin" has to do with Ben. Ok, that's all for now...

"You look just like her"

Who do you think Harper was referring to when she told Juliet, "You look just like her." Some have said, perhaps Annie... But a part of me wonders if it's Ben's mother. She had blonde wavy hair, right? I don't know... just a thought...

Ben's mother ...

Hey you have a good point.  That would be interesting.  Hmmm.

Ben's mother

I like that speculation to BG...that would make the most sense to me in a way. And make things even cree-pee-err...shudder

Ben's Mother

Exactly!!!! That's Norman Bates creepy right there! SHUDDER is right!!

:) Poor Juliet!

I concur...

Possessiveness is scary.

I agree too - that despite the writers not giving us the piece of information we all craved - what Ben told Locke... they gave us a nice feel good, fun piece with Ben walking across the courtyard.  It made me laugh.