My thoughts on 4.11...

Excellent point prof. I can think of two possibilities:

1. The change in rules has something to do with the transition from Ben to Locke as the island's chosen one.

2. If someone actually moved the ash in order to allow the cabin to move, I would guess that this would be someone who is an agent for Widmore. Widmore would know about how to keep the cabin in place and what to do to alter that. And I'm sure you all know who I'd nominate as his agent :-) Thinking again about the Widmore insignia on Henry Gale's balloon and the anagram on the dollar bill "I owe you a beer"="Iowa be our eye".

I wonder if something allowed Jacob to "leave" the cabin before the ash was removed. Cue John or the rules. Perhaps he removed the ash himself.

It seems at least part of the reason Jacob said "help me" was because of that ash circle. Keeping him confined to one place and at the hands of Ben. Maybe John removed the ash.

Yes, good thinking Katerinsky!

What was Locke doing by the Cabin when Hurley found it the first time?

I've never been fully convinces that the ash had anything to do with confinement of Jacob. It could have been used for any number of things if it was even a meaningful object. Same goes for the "help me" message from Jacob to Locke. We've sort of accepted the idea of the ash as a means of confinement for Jacob but we also accept that Jacob 'sent' Walt (or an aberration of Walt). But the obvious question is how? If Jacob was confined by the ash how did he help Locke escape from the pit?

I think the cabin is a manifestation in the mind(s) of the chosen. It may be an illusion created to allow the "chosen" to understand things they couldn't otherwise comprehend (think Jodie Foster in "Contact"). I think the cabin represents a medium solely for the benefit of the person being summoned. What possible use would a non-corporeal entity have with a cabin? I have to think the cabin 1. isn't a real physical object and 2. isn't for Jacob's benefit at all but acts as a sort of bridge that allows Ben/Locke etc. to enter into another realm of existence without losing their minds. If that's indeed the case then I doubt it was ever actually locked into one specific location which would explain Ben not being able to find it and Hurley thinking it was following him.

... I got the clear impression that Ben was used to visiting the cabin always in the same place.  Now, sure, maybe that's just what worked "for Ben", but it doesn't appear to me that the "jump around cabin" really works for John, so why would it move at all?

I mean... I get what you're saying.  But why have this plot element in the show? What purpose does it serve? Because it proves to us that it IS a manifestation? OK, but... why is it significant that the cabin is a manifestation? Just logical consistency? That doesn't seem like enough of a rationale to me.

Prof what if the cabin is actually a link between the two worlds (the living and the dead) that prevents the living from becoming trapped in the afterlife? Or maybe it's a doorway to a different world - or (my personal favorite) it's the entrance into a worm hole that allows the two beings on opposite ends to 'meet'. The wormhole idea is an interesting one since it introduces the idea of time travel as alternative to bilocating. The movement of the cabin now could mean that the mechanism that has been used to create it has become unstable - maybe due to Widmore "changing the rules" or maybe the swan station was being used to stabilize it, or maybe the cabin had it's own sort of "constant" which has now been removed, etc. etc. In any case, it could be that the cabin and it's movement is intended to signal a new instability and a change in the island and the laws that govern it. This would certainly help explain the change in command between Ben and Locke.

-or it could be nothing and the ash was really the anchor and I'm just wasting bandwidth!!

Juke-box.

I like the idea of the cabin as a threshold (living/dead conscious/unconsious, braodcast/cable)--but wormhole, meh... I dunno...that seems like bringing up a whole new narrative at this point. I kind of hope not.

These kids today! They must all have alien neural parasites!

But Ju'Kin!  There is no honor is serving the Ghargh if it no longer moves!!!

Bat leh' my friend,  Jazhk

You are apologizing?

APOLOGIZING!

HAH!  You dishonor your family name Juk-Hin!...

I should kill you where you stand...

to help a child cut his first battle teeth :-)

Don't worry about where your Bat'leh is, boy, but mine!

... and you are NOT one of them. 

Interesting thoughts, to be sure.  I guess we'll have to see...

Well, I think it's a clever idea... it sounds pretty good, but I don't think we're going to see Locke and Jack together any time soon simply because he has to move the island. That's a TIME consuming ordeal, ahem.  Then again, we know Hurley is with John and Ben and he leaves among the rest of the O6...

As far as the message intending to keep Jack on the island - that does explain his distant feelings toward Aaron in Kate's FF. That's interesting.

We know at some point Miles and Sawyer will return with Aaron and without Claire, which will probably concern Jack to no end. And since Miles has seen Christian he could describe what Christian looked like to Jack. Blah.

Nevertheless, John being the messenger is a good idea, and I like Christian as the messenger as well. If one of THEM tells Jack I'll be satisfied with that I think.

"It has occurred to me that perhaps the reason Christian was speaking to John was because part of what John was supposed to get out of visiting the cabin was a message for Jack."

What makes you think this is the case? Was something stated that Christian had a message for Jack? If so why wouldn't he simply appear to Jack in a dream or appear in his tent or a hundred other ways that would make Jack more likely to believe the message? Jack doesn't trust Locke at all. Next to Ben and maybe Miles there are few worse choices that Christian could make to deliver a message to Jack. The best way would probably be through Claire (regardless of whether she's alive or dead).

... the point is there just has to be some reason John is talking to Christian and not Jacob, don't you think? I mean, everything you said was true.  But it all leaves open the question of why Christian is there to talk "on behalf of" Jacob while Jacob isn't there himself.

Now, again, you're right... John is about the worst choice as a messenger to Jack... it's even already been tried and failed (with the sat-phone).  But what if Christian doesn't really HAVE a choice (like with Jack and the sat-phone)? I'm guessing he doesn't.  Perhaps Jack is "too limited to see" Christian or understand what he has to say.  True, Claire ought to work for giving Jack the message, but it's obvious that Christian thinks Claire needs to be sequestered for some reason not yet revealed (while Aaron, curiously, is not presently meant to be so hidden... which doesn't make sense at this point).

So... I'm just trying to make sense of things that don't presently make sense.

Claire revealing the truth... that's interesting, too!

Ooo, Christian AND Claire... wow that have me goosebumps.

But really, though... I think Prof is hitting the nail close because if Claire or Christian were the ones to tell Jack about their relation... it would definitely be enough to convince Jack to stay, among Other things. So Jack not believing such a revelation coming from John does make some sense since he left the island anyway.

I don't think Locke was treated as an orphan but as a foster child. So I believe his name would remain what it was at birth.

Agreed about the parallels between Ben and Locke--which I think highlighted the difference when Locke gave Hurley a choice and Ben thought he was playing Hurley. I think if Ben was offerred those object choices, he would have chosen the knife and maybe that would have been OK with Richard. 'Cause Ben's time being the island's chosen one does seem to be all about purging/excising people. Thought about Abbadon and his proposal to Locke to go walkabout (with a knife): this IS what gets Locke to the island but only because he doesn't go on the walkabout. But it is also the first time Locke chooses something that seems to be taking him toward his destiny. So I'm still not sure who Abbadon represents--as other times when Locke chooses the hunter role that seems to be a mistake.

Claire--I think the door has opened and Claire--while not dead--still has seen something on the other side which has shown her the big picture. An idea about Claire & Aaron and the helicopter vision: nothing says when this happens or where they are going. The O6 it seems pretty clear are not getting off by helicopter. Possibly then one way in which the vision could still be true is that Claire and Aaron take off from the island by helicopter--but in some farther future--one in which the O6 have made it back and Aaron is older. I also wonder if the fact that it's by helicopter (air) and not by boat (sea) that's important.

Michael/Walt/Richard as recruiter--just one thing I thought of putting those three together. Why did we never see Richard try to recruit Walt at any time? And why did Walt get sent away from the island?

Prior to his adoption some of the nurses called Locke a "fighter" and the others called him a "miracle baby".  I wonder if this is an indication of whose side he will end up being on in this "battle to control the island".

Speculating on this a bit...

Knife = bad for Richard's purposes... but he does not lose hope that Locke's choice will change.  Even in relation to when Ben gives Locke a knife to kill his father.  Richard points out that this move was to humiliate Locke. 

Knife = good for Abbadon's walkabout suggestion... Does that mean Abaddon is not on Richard's side?  I'm not real sure on that one.  Abaddon's alliegence is supposed to remain a mystery, me thinks... and it seems the writers are using their lack of content/misleading clues M.O. to keep it that way.

I was remembering trying to connect up the Jacob and Esau story to Jacob, and then it suddenly occurred to me that in the story Jacob is a farmer and Esau is a hunter--the two sides of John. So Locke choosing the knife--wasn't choosing Jacob's side? And finally has chosen that side in "Cabin Fever" I think.

Esau is also distinguished from Jacob in being hairy (and Jacob fools their blind father Isaac into giving him Esau's blessing by putting on an animal hide)--which sounds a bit like what the Others do in putting on fake beards and beat up clothing. Maybe Alpert and Abbadon represent two sides or two forces on the island? And Widmore used to be on the same side as Ben & Alpert?

...and I'm not sure if anyone brought this up on another thread or not yet, but I noticed it was raining when Richard came to give Locke the test the first time.

It seems to me like that should be significant somehow - but I still haven't figured out the rain thing going on with his character yet.

oooo Great Observation Agent. I wonder if it's like the appearance of that character, the Psychologist/Goodwin's Wife, being followed by rain. Whatever process brings Richard to someplace involves electromagnetic charges which cause rain?

My only other connection is Locke's predictive ability and embrace of the rain.

(Good points made by both of you)

Desmond's vision of Claire, Aaron and the helicopter... I don't think that's a legitimate reason to say Claire couldn't be dead simply because we already think Desmond was mistaken about that vision anyway. Although I'm on the fence with Claire being dead, the only reason I'm on the fence to begin with is because there are some strong indications that she has indeed met her demise. Case in point, Claire tells John "I'm fine, I'm with him." Him being Christian who is clearly dead.

Th REAL reason I hit reply is because I was thinking it might be a possibility what Desmond saw was a woman carrying Aaron onto the helicopter but he assumed that woman was Claire when in fact it was really Kate. Besides, Desmond mistaking the identity of who takes Aaron off the island doesn't make Charlie more of a martyr or something.

Kat I think the Claire and Aaron vision that Desmond had is a pretty big issue right now. I don't think he would have mistaken Kate for Claire. He's been around both for several months at this point and since they look nothing alike I'm not sure he would mistake one for the other simply because they are holding Aaron. I'm also assuming that Desmond isn't misinterpreting the vision since he was correct in the rest of the details; Charlie in a room with a blinking light, turning off the jamming gear and then drowning. I do think that was a self fulfilling prophecy but we've talked that to death (pun intended). Anyway the point is that if he was correct in the other aspects of the vision then I think it's safe to assume that he was correct in this part as well.... if it was real. If you accept those two premises then it means one of four things is happening;

1. Claire is still alive and the vision has yet to occur.
2. Claire is dead and Desmond lied about the vision.
3. Claire is dead and Desmond sees an aberration of her boarding the chopper.
   
4. Claire is dead and Desmond can see ghosts in the same way as Miles.
   

I really don't think he saw an aberration because it was a vision. I guess it's possible that whatever force is responsible for the other aberrations of Christian, Dave, Yemi etc. (be it smokie, Jacob, the island or some other as yet unknown force), may be able to implant the visions in Desmond as well. But without having anything tangible to base that on from the show I'm going to consider that likelihood remote enough as to not warrant serious consideration -- at least for now. The same thing holds for option 4, Desmond can see ghosts. We just have nothing to suggest that's the case with him so while I leave it open as a possibility, I'll assume it's a remote one.

So unless you can come up with some other possibility, we're left with two choices; Claire is alive, or Desmond lied. I personally think that both are the case, but I guess we'll find out tonight!

I think Claire is alive based on this photo of Claire in the cabin with Christian. Why would a ghost have a band-aid on her head?

OK I admit that was a stretch... I'm not claiming I buy it or anything.

And... well... I don't think I really agree with the one premise about Desmond not misinterpreting his vision. Many of Desmond’s visions about Charlie dying did not come true, so I would guess that Desmond’s visions just indicate one possible version of the future. I mean, I think he literally sees just enough to enable him to orchestrate the events. If Claire does not get on the helicopter with Aaron I wouldn't necessarily say that means Desmond had to have been lying. Like Desmond emphasized in Catch-22, his flashes are like a jigsaw puzzle without the picture on the box... he doesn't exactly know how the pieces fit.

I know he desperately wants to see Penny and that indicates it's possible he'd lie and manipulate in order to finally be reunited with her, so we need to find out what happens like now!

... my theory from the beginning has been that Desmond lied about Claire and Aaron being rescued via helicopter.  But I guess we'll see.

(I'd link you to the LT theory I submitted in regard to this issue but... heh... you know...)

My theory...what it 'tis...

You may well ask...

This is it...my theory, by Ozone [bracket] Prof...ahem

OK that looks totally different with Firefox. I see what you're saying DaBot with the two images. With Internet Explorer, there's only one image... dangit...

I tried and tried and tried, and I couldn't post an image...

BTW, it shows twice

Not really. I just highlighted the image and c&ped. 

There is supposed to be a reflection underneath the image but it moved it's way to the side. If that's what you're talking about. But you get the picture.

Yeah I've never been able to post an image either. I'll have to try it again.... let's see if this works.....

Got it!! I'm using Firefox which has always had a problem with Cut and Paste on this site for some odd reason. DaBot if you open a second window (not a tab but a completely separate window) you can simply drag and drop the image into the comment box.  Thanks Kat - you is DaBest.

Yeah, I forgot that Firefox doesn't allow you to copy and paste on here. I use Explorer at work - which is where I'm at now, so...

I don't know how to paste images using Firefox but if you use Windows you can go to your Start menu, click Run, and type in "iexplorer" (?, or however it's spelt) to enable you to use your internet explorer browser and try it like that. Should work.

Richard has been carrying around that same vintage bag since John's childhood! Stinky...

And one of the items Richard brings is a knife similar to the one Ben gave to Locke.

If he time traveled that would explain some things, but I think I'll be disappointed with that outcome.

While I was scavenging L-T for jaz's theories, I had the chance to re-read some theories from other authors, and this paragraph --from Prof's "B. F. Skinner and Carl Jung" one-- made me think again about Alpert's "test" to Locke:

"It’s important also to understand that as Skinner’s ideas are extended to behavioral research on humans, deception is a common tool used by researchers to get to the bottom of human behavior. For example, a man and a woman might be told that they have been randomly selected to participate in a study on problem solving and given tasks that variously demand the use of mathematical or spatial abilities to complete them. What the two subjects will certainly not be told is that the study is actually trying to see how gender roles manifest themselves in certain tasks. Skinner behaviorism acknowledges that the absolute best way to study psychology is to observe subjects in their natural surroundings, but it also insists that well-designed lab environments can also yield natural results without the “noise” of a spontaneous habitat. In other words, the woman and the man in our gender study are not in their natural, distracting environment when we ask them to work together in the lab. However, if we obscure the true intention of our study, their natural gender attitudes may nevertheless shine through."

The idea of a "real" test disguised as a "false" one was what made me think it didn't really matter which one of the six object was picked. What Alpert was cheking was Locke's reaction to his question.

I mean, any "regular" kid you ask "Which of these things belong to you already?" is bound to answer you "you're nuts" or, at least, give you the "you're nuts" look. Locke didn't. He didn't get rid of the weirdo, either, by just picking one of the trinkets. Locke knew what he was asked about, understood the question, and pondered about the answer for a while.

Those might be the reactions Alpert was looking for, in order to detect an "extremely special" kid. The fact Locke chose the knife could be trivial.

Why should be seem angered, and leave at a rush? Well, maybe it was the right time for him to discover Locke, but not the right time for Locke to be recruited. Similar what happened with Ben, detected as a child but having to be "very, very patient" until he could be considered one of Richard's people. That would explain why Mr. Alpert tried to contact Locke as a teenager with the "science camp" excuse.

What do you think? Another Skinnerism, or am I just loosing my bytes? 

I like that idea, DB, but I think it's possibly both a test of his specialness (which he passes) and his acceptance of his destiny* (which he doesn't) -- that latter is such an ongoing part of Locke's story that I can't think it's not there as well.

*d-e-s-t-i-n-y...d-e-s-t-i-n-y...no escaping, that's for me, DESTINY!