My thoughts on 4.12 Part 1...

...a small note. Sun's reaction to Jack's response about being in shock - it just dawned on me that Rose had to sort of "remind" him of something similar soon after the plane crashed ("Walkabout" ep I think). He advised that she shouldn't be out there alone and that she is suffering from post traumatic shock... to which she responds, "aren't we all?"

UGH, I hate to admit it but the two examples do kind of seem to indicate there is a reason he does not recognize that they SHOULD be in shock. The reason being that "he's been there before" or the like.

Wow... I was way too optimistic last night... too much for my comfort!

Yeah I like that parallel about being in shock--hey and reminds me of that post I did about shock therapy--the one in which Des is building the lightning rod, and Sawyer let's himself be shocked in the cage, Sawyer thinks they're going to stop his heart with the implant, and supposedly there's no battery for the defibrillator.

Des's role similar to the lightning rod--he is protecting them against shock, wheras Jack is trying to mask over the fact that they've been shocked.

I'm not sure if it means they've lived it before. But I think it does mean that Des's role with Charlie--to not accept fate (or at least Des's role up until TTLG) is the one they should be following. It will offer them actual protection. Jack is making the mistake of thinking that denial rather than a pursuit of truth offers safety.

It reminds me of Jack with Kate in the Pilot--teaching her to count to 5. There he had that live in the moment and confront fear attitude, but he loses it later and tries to protect her not through confronting fear and danger but trying to control--to hide her from the dangerous situation.

Also reminds me of Christian telling Jack that he can't be the hero and should just stay down, contrasted with Des telling him to lift it up.

(Heh, I liked that Shock Therapy post--maybe I'll move some of my fav Group 1's over.)

Oooo very nice.

In that vein then - would Christian be the "dark side" of the yin yang for Jack?  Meaning then that the Jacob camp is against Jack. 

Des mebbe inspiration for the "light side" in Jack?  Des has always sort of presented his faith in a way that brings Jack to question what's going on - rather than to scare him in the way Locke does (as Locke's been Benipulated into acting on his fear and thus brings that out in Jack).

Relying too much on his coping skill - his science and subsequent rationale has always been Jack's weak point.  Even "living in the moment" with Kate - Jack comes up with a "formula" for dealing and tries to deny the power of the moment that is really the magic behind it all.  He takes the method away from the moment and leaves the heart of it in the past.

Kate does seem pivotal in the Jack story for whatever reason.  I think she is supposed to inspire faith in him as well, but Jack seems too trapped by his romantic narrative of "fixing broken things"  with his 'method' to connect with her in the way that he needs to in order to become "whole".  He doesn't know how to truly love her because love requires faith - he'd have to have faith in her and with this comes the trust.  Trust is what he seems to be always lacking when he's faced with who she is and what to do with all her faults. 

Nonetheless - I think he feels true love for her - inspirational moments do occur and they connect... but he does not understand that this connection isn't dependent upon his method, or even on him... but from a power outside himself.  He's short circuiting the romance by not trusting in - first this power outside himself, but also leading to his lack of trust for anyone outside of himself (including her) or his rationale about the events that are happening. 

If I can judge by the bearded scene in the FF with Kate - it seems like at least for a time Jack's actions manifest in a self fufilling prophecy.  The moral seems to be that rationalizing a coping skill for fear and relying on that is still letting fear control your actions and not love or faith.  True love casts out fear.  Faith in only yourself is not enough for love between two people to be sustained.

The fact that Sun specifically says that Jin died on the plane--I'm thinking this must mean that the 2 people who made it off the plane but not to civilization must be known in some way. As in, their bodies turn up.

And...why not just say that Aaron is a baby born to someone who didn't survive? Is it important for someone that Aaron not be reunited with his grandmother and stay with Kate instead?

"And...why not just say that Aaron is a baby born to someone who didn't survive?"

Jaz, I think the ONLY way Kate could have any chance of keeping Aaron is if he's her baby. Remember that she's a fugitive and as such the Authorities are not going to let her have custody of a child - even if everyone of the remaining O-6 swear that Claire asked Kate to raise him. Aaron would be immediately placed in a foster home and it's very unlikely that Kate would be deemed a worthy parent even if (as happened) she manages to avoid a conviction. On the other hand if Aaron is hers, as long as she is deemed competent, then she can name a guardian for her child even if she is sentenced to jail time.

I know I'm splitting hairs here (and it is after all just a TV show) but I just had a passing thought about Kate and Aaron. I would expect that once the survivors were found they would have had a medical exam which more than likely would include a blood test. Once they were picked up by the US Coast Guard, the Federal Government became responsible for Aaron's well being. I would think that they would run a DNA test on Aaron and Kate to make sure that they are in fact, placing the baby with his actual birth Mother and not simply taking her word that the child is hers. It seems like this should fall under "standard procedure" where no records are available and someone of questionable character is claiming to be the child's parent.

Obviously a blood test wasn't done here since and no one seems to have any question about Kate's claim to being Aaron's Mother - even though her arrest record failed to note that she was 6 months pregnant!! Seriously, how did everyone miss that red flag and why wasn't a DNA test called for?

"I think the ONLY way Kate could have any chance of keeping Aaron is if he's her baby"

Yeah, Jukin, I agree--and that seemed to be drawn attention to in having no one meet Kate in the FF in "There's No Place Like Home"--but my point then is--why is it important for some one of the sides here for Kate to remain in possession of Aaron? "Cause otherwise he would have gone to his grand mother, I think.

Again, Jukin, excellent point!

I thought the same thing about the medical exam! One would think that the survivors would have most likely undergone a medical exam.   But apparently no exam was administered, not only for the reasons you cited, but wouldn't a pediatrician be able to tell exactly how old Aaron is!  What's going on here?   

Good point, Jaz!  Why didn't they just say that Claire lived long enough to give birth and then she died!  You may be right, it may have something to do with Aaron NEEDING to stay with Kate, but why?  

Possible spoiler........ 

According to Lostpedia, "No Place Like Home" originally contained a scene identifying the O8.  The scene was later deleted.  I won't mention any names, just in case the producers are planning to include this scene at a later date and other reader here would like to be surprised.  

I did notice that the pilot had a rabbit's foot - and there was also a rabbit's foot on the keys that went to Hurley's birthday car with the numbers.

LOL maybe it's the original Orchid rabbit and they keychain "bilocated". 

Bad mojo scene in the plane - yeah, that was strange. Heh, that woman, she got shot in the head by a frakkin cylon.

Marketing... I think there are people out there trying to make money on the fame of the O6. That's what I gathered from the "catchy" comment.

Dan needing to get off the island before the island is moved - specifically, because he might lose his constant Des?

Jack -pretense/mask. You're right. Just like Kate telling Jack after her trial that he talks as if he believes what he's saying about the cover up story. He's blinded by the lies they have to tell and not focusing on the reality of what they have actually been through, unlike Sun.

The numbers - no, I don't think they were placed there. Hurley's dad said "what a coincidence". Dude, when the heck are they going to say it's frikkin synchronicity??

Oo, AWESOME points all around but very nice with the FF birthday, funeral and identity.

Yeah - trying to pull all this information together for myself here and link everything together.

Jaz mentioned that too - I reference it below.

I bet the armband is both detonater and transmitter (in a way a tracking device for Keamy and whether he is alive or not).   My hypothesis is that it detects the heart beat since it's on his left arm - the only reason I think that is that it is the arm you'd detect the symptoms of a heart attack, not because I know any real devices like that.

I like that ending too, Jukin; I hope Jin is alive, but I'm a little concerned for his well being.  Does anyone know what Jin said to Sun when everyone on the boat was together in the "explosive" room?  I think he probably told her to "get back to the island ASAP," but that's just a guess.    

My real comment has to do with the location of the crash site!   Part of the cover story seems to be (at least initially) that flight 815 actually did crash in the Indian Ocean!!?  This to me is very confusing.  This is a direct contradiction to Jack's testimony at Kate's trial, when he stated they had crashed in the Pacific.    

Yes, I checked the transcript from Eggtown and here it is:

JACK:  ..."Ms. Austen and I were both passengers on Oceanic 815 which crash landed on an island in the South Pacific."

First of all, he says they crash landed on an island, not in the water as the cover story suggests!   

Okay.... what we know or what we think we know about the crash site and actual location of the island.

1.  We think we know that the plane crashed on an island in the South Pacific, based on the comments of the pilot in the "pilot" episode and the location of the freighter, which supposedly left from Fiji.  

2.  Jack's testimony from Kate's trial.

However....., we have also learned that the "staged" wreckage is off the coast of Bali in the Indian Ocean.  This fits perfectly with the "cover story" - that the survivors were found on the tiny island of Sumba, also in the Indian Ocean.  This also fits with the theories posted last summer, that Oceanic 815 actually flew west (not east) after leaving Sydney. 

So, why is the "cover story" crash site different than Jack's testimony? And where is this "dang" island anyway?

Annie--thanks for pointing to this and other discrepancies--I think the reason why there are contradictions is really worth pursuing. You pointed to three in your comment to Prof's posting on 4.12 Part 1

1. Island location

2. Timing of Kate's pregnancy

3. Claire's Mother eventually putting two and two together about Kate/Aaron because she knows Claire was pregnant.

That last one--I double checked "Par Avion" and Claire's mother was in a coma when she became pregnant so I don't think she would make that connection. But it does make me wonder about why her mother regains consciousness after so many years in a coma. Especially as consciousness plays such a big role on the show. Also reviewing "Par Avion" made me remember the note that Claire & Charlie attached to the bird. I know that bird's ability to navigate has to do with magnetism so whether the bird made it away from the island is questionable. But maybe if the bubble has opened in some way it did. And why, from the writer's perspective, make this a central point in an episode if not to return to it later? As in yet another contradiction to the cover story.

Reason for the contradictions: Focussing primarily on Jack's change of story. He's really the spokesperson for the cover story so it's even more noticable that it's his testimony that contradicts the crash site. Why would he do that? Either by that time he is, himself, having doubts about what they have done and is trying to undermine the story indirectly. Or--and I like this possibility better--in the Flash Forwards besides the physical conflict between the Ben/Widmore sides evidenced in "The Economist" there is also a fight going on over the minds of the O6. And Jack's ability to lie in support of the cover story is being undermined. This struggle over his mind is what is leading to his suicidal state in TTLG.

Jaz,

Great point on the rescue note.  I wonder what was actually written on the note?  Perhaps she included names and numbers.  Can you imagine someone actually finding the note and it saying something like - "there are 48 survivors here on the island...." now that would be interesting.  That would be so cool, if we actually see this in one of the flash forwards.

Excellent points jaz and annie. The discrepancies have bothered me as well and I have no idea how to go around it.

Jaz that's what I was curious about - Claire's mother regaining consciousness. I had been thinking about that and I thought it would be important to note that Christian initially tried to get Claire to kill her mother when she was in a coma. He suggests that turning off the machine is illegal but there are other alternatives that will achieve the same effect without the legal ramifications. What? Why? She eventually regains consciousness despite Christian's failed attempt to subdue her... what's that about?

Hi Kat,

Yes, one has to wonder what Christian's attempt to "turn off the machine" really has to do with the story.  I think almost everyone, including myself, had completely forgotten about Claire's mom at all.  As Prof suggested, it was very surprising and slightly unrewarding that she was the one to notify Jack of his relationship with Claire.  (My money was on Ben.)  

Yeah, and that's creepy.

But Christian also says Claire shouldn't keep her mom alive for the wrong reasons. Surely he'd only suggest such a thing if the chances of her coming out of the coma were next to none. But eventually she regains consciousness when Claire is on the island? Charlie told Hurley that Jack, not Kate, is not supposed to raise Aaron. This would make Kate a temporary surrogate mother, keeping Aaron safe rather than with Claire on the island while war is going down.

I don't know why Christian wouldn't allow Claire to leave the island if she is in danger (perhaps 'cause she's already dead) but knew that Aaron would be taken care of and eventually return to the island and as theorized possibly be key to bringing the other O6 back. But it still piques my interest that she wakes up while Claire is on an island that respectively collects unconscious thoughts and memories.

Great comments all around and a special tip of the hat to Annie for noticing the contradictions in Jack's story. Looking at the transcripts from both 'Eggtown' and 'There's No Place Like Home pt 1', I don't think the contradiction is really about them landing in the water vs. on the island, but there are serious errors in Jack's stories. Here's the relevant parts from both episodes:

TNPLH-Pt. 1
JACK: It--it all happened really fast. I remember the impact. I remember the--the plane filling up with water. A group of us got to the emergency door, and, um... got out before it went down.

MALE REPORTER #1: And those of you who survived--you swam to the island?

JACK: No. We had, uh, cushions. We had some life jackets. We were in the water for over a day before the current took us in. By then, there was only eight of us left.

His testimony from Eggtown
JACK: Um..on September 22, 2004, Kate (sighs, smiling) --Ms. Austen and I were both passengers on Oceanic Flight 815, which crash-landed on an island in the South Pacific.

Then he later expands on that....

JACK: Only eight of us survived the crash. We landed in the water. I was hurt, pretty badly. In fact, if it weren't for her, I would have never made it to the shore. She took care of me. She took care of all of us. She--she gave us first aid, water, found food, made shelter. She tried to save the other two, but they didn't--

In the cover story it sounds as if a good number of people made it out of the plane and later died in the water. But at the trial he claims that only 8 survived the initial crash. This is a pretty major mistake on his part. Also during the testimony he claims that he would never have made it to shore without Kate's help, but during the press conference he never gave any indication that he needed any help at any point.

But the most interesting part I think is that they have miscounted the survivors. According to BOTH versions of the story there were 6 survivors alive on the island. 8 made it onto the island in both versions. According to the cover story Kate gave birth to Aaron on the island.

From TNPLH

MS. DECKER: Based on the location of the wreckage, our best estimate of the crash site is... (click) here. From there, the survivors were carried by the ocean's current to... (click) here--an uninhabited island in the Lesser Sunda Islands known as Membata. As you've all read in your briefing books, on day 103... (click) a typhoon washed up the remnants of an Indonesian fishing boat, including basic supplies and a survival raft. On day 108, the remaining six survivors, including Ms. Austen's baby which she gave birth to on the island of Membata, used this raft to journey here-- (click) an island called Sumba.

Why would they count Aaron separately before his birth? It seems odd that Jack would count him individually while he was still in the womb.

JACK: "Only eight of us survived the crash."

-and-

JACK: "By then, there was only eight of us left."

Maybe it's just me but I doubt anyone would really count an unborn child in this manner until after he was born - particularly when the Mother is only 6 months pregnant and seemingly not showing enough that the police would have noticed it and noted her condition in their arrest reports. So why is Jack including Aaron as an individual during his testimony? It just seems like he shouldn't be included among the survivors until after his birth - at which point it would have raised the total number of people on the island of Membata to 7.

So with all of these discrepancies, why hasn't someone - a reporter or the Prosecutor perhaps? - picked up on it? Thank goodness we have Annie!! Oh and one last thing, it seems that the writers have found a way to include the Tsunami in the story with the idea of it bringing up the wreckage of that fishing boat. I was wondering if and how they would incorporate this into the story.

It seems very clear to me - that they didn't count Aaron before he was born.   Check it out here: FRED WAS THERE! 

It's true - their cover story was a pack of lies.

I am laughing a bit at just how accurate Fred's story was - even though his videos came out last season and all.

I'm beginning to wonder when Macaroni and Cheese is going to become a major plot point... 

Hmmmm... 

Maybe it's not really chicken in those Mr. Clucks bags Hurley is carrying around.

Thanks, Jukin, you are very sweet,  but I'm not the only one who noticed the discrepancies in the "cover story. "

You, on the other hand, were very smart to follow through on the rest of Jack's testimony about the remaining survivors.  I stopped at the first line, because to me, the contradiction was very specific on his part regarding the crash site.  The fact that baby Aaron would have been number 7 (on Membata) is very interesting. I hadn't considered this before.   

It seems to me, eventually, the "ill fated" cover story will most likely be challenged and proven to be just that, a pack of lies.    The questions still remains, why did Jack say what he did at Kate's trial?  Was it possibly his first opportunity to "hint" publicly that the "cover story" is a lie?   Just a thought.   

One other discrepancy I found in the "cover story."  In the briefing, a reporter asks Kate how old Aaron is now.  She answers, "5 weeks."

The truth is, according to Lostpedia, Aaron was born November 1.  The press conference would have taken place sometime after day 108, (January 7, 2005) the day of rescue.  Aaron would be at least 10 weeks old by "day 108," not 5 weeks as Kate stated.    To the reporter, I'm sure all babies look the same.  But I'm guessing, someone will eventually pick up on the age discrepancy.  

Yeah Annie, he certainly doesn't look like a 5 week old. So the question that occurs to me thin is why not have him be 10 weeks old in the cover story? Kate would have had to be 5 weeks further along in her pregnancy but it's already going to be pretty noticeable that she wasn't 6 months pregnant.

Exactly right, Prof.  It seems odd, doesn't it, that no one would have asked THAT question.  At the very least, one would think it would have been part of the original explanation during the briefing.   

That's true... you know it does seem to me that Ben has been demoted in status.  Beyond that the Benipulation is starting to fail here and there - on this show it seems the more they reveal about a character the less important they become.  Ben has been reduced to a jealous, vindictive, crazyperson and somewhat of a pawn...  Sitting with Hurley and eating candy bars seemingly resigned to his unimportant fate.  While that might kinda suck for Benlovers - it would fit with how Lost kind of throws away a character once their storyline has been clearly established.  It seems to me like Ben's story is not over, but it's more and more clear someone else is more important in this war.

Both Alpert and Abbadon - and Mrs Hawking still need a reveal.

I'll hop on the bandwagon.

I suppose when Ben confronts Widmore about the death of Alex he could have been currently looking not just for the island but for the tracking device/iPod thing. But it didn't seem as though Widmore even knew where to look for the island. So then why wouldn't Widmore know where the island is in the future? I do think you could be right but there has to be a reason.  Perhaps the same reason Ben possibly can't find the island in the future... suggesting John and Ben moved it, but not without a side effect or something.

Is the time dilation surrounding the island effects of the island having been previously moved? Could the polar bear found in Tunisia be proof of this? Rather than the bear having been bilocated there.

Yeah, I do think Sun is exacting revenge on Widmore et al and/or using her position much like Penny did in order to find the island again. Which also means it's still possible that Jin could be alive on the island and Sun is trying to go back for him. So yay!  

The device strapped to Keamy's arm is probably a detonator for the explosives on the freighter.

Like Jaz says (in her comment 4.11 on this page)

It's probably true.  I noticed that the device is strapped to his left arm.   Maybe the point of this is because the device detects his heart beat in some way and if Keamy dies then the boat will explode.  It's like his "insurance" policy ...

You're probably right. In addition to the thing attached to his arm, he was also wearing some strap around his waist. I took that thing as the heart rate monitor and the device around Keamy's arm the transmitter. But I understand that the left arm is preferable in detecting a pulse. Regardless, I think it's safe to say the device as a whole is useful for both a detonator and transmitter.

I doubt it means anything but the device is actually a musician metronome. Considering Charlie is a musician and how he died 'n all I thought there'd be something to it but I don't think there is.

I think you guys are probably right about it being a heart rate monitor but it could also be on his left arm simply because he's right handed (he shots Alex with a gun in his right hand). If he needs to enter a number or activate the thing in some way he probably would need to use his right hand to do that.

[EDIT] Having thought about it some more I realize that the device is strapped to the inside of his arm which would make entering info more difficult. I think you guys are right - it has to be a heart monitor. That sort of sucks since I was looking forward to his demise. I guess we'll need Ben & Sayid to beat him unconscious and remove the thing before turning him off as well!

I hate that Keamy guy. I'd like to see Smokey chew into his huge swollen arms and deflate them!

... Keamy is wearing the detonator... good call...

That's an interesting notion about the "bubble" being "sealed" until the implosion.  Raises questions again about Ben manipulating events so that it would be destroyed.

I had a bad feeling about Jin and the explosives; nervous about Des as well. And what Prof. said about "honor" does lead me to think that Jin died.

That's an interesting idea about something opening the bubble--maybe the implosion. Which would mean before that maybe the only way that was clear was dropping in from above or coming from below. That would make the time weirdness entering and exiting a recent phenomenon though.

I like that idea about Widmore. In fact, I loved that scene with Sun and her father. Business--nothing you'd understand, HAH!

Several times in the Flash Forward Sun represented truth telling to me (as opposed to Jack)--and here too, when she says to her father to stop pretending to be interested in Sun's baby. Another interesting reversal.