Dimensions, Vibrations, and Minds...
Oh MY!...Dimensions, Vibrations, and Minds...
The GC's post on CERN and the possibility of actually getting evidence of the extra dimensions postulated by string theory was reminding me of the talk aby Brain Greene on TED on string theory which I knew I posted around here somehwhere....Oh, yeah on the Lost Jones forum :-) because of the importance of vibrations, special, universal numbers, different dimensions, and electro-magnetism. (That TED talk is here, btw, String Theory.)
And then I also remembered that DaBot had emailed me some links on the Many Dimensions and Many Minds interpretations that are philosophical concepts coming out of quantum mechanics and string theory.
I'm not sure I have anything like a coherent theory here, but I do think I can see that the writers are probably making use of some of this stuff in interesting ways and here's what I think are the two main connections:
1. I may not have this right at all so if someone knows more about the physics please correct me--but one of the things I gather from Greene's explanation is that there are 20 numbers that are foundational to the universe existing. He says in the talk that if you had dials which allowed you to dial the numbers up or down the universe would cease to be. And at least some of the numbers (all of them, I'm not sure?) have to do with the frequencies at which the strings in string theory vibrate--the frequencies I think determine how they come together as particles (quarks)--the existence of matter.
On the show--could this mean that something Dharma was doing made it possible to turn those dials and change "good" vibrations, to vibrations bringing about the end of the possibility of existence? And now the vibrations have to be monitored and kept in check?
2. OK--now switching to the problem of nondeterminacy and the fact that a system seems to select an outcome out of various possible outcomes when observerd (Schrodingers cat, the wavefunction [probability] collapse).
There are two philosophical interpretations of this that look important for the show:
Many Worlds: (quoting from Wiki) "Hugh Everett described a way out of this problem by suggesting that the universe is in fact indeterminate as a whole. That is, if you were to measure the spin of a particle and find it to be "up", in fact there are two "yous" after the measurement, one who measured the spin up, the other spin down. Effectively by looking at the system in question, you take on its indeterminacy."
Many Minds: (Wiki) "The many minds interpretations suggests that to solve the measurement problem, there is no need to secure a definite macrorealm: the only thing that's required is appearance of such. A bit more precisely: the idea is that the preferred quantity is whatever physical quantity, defined on brains (or brains and parts of their environments), has definite-valued states (eigenstates) that underpin such appearances, i.e. underpin the states of belief in, or sensory experience of, the familiar macroscopic realm.
In its original version (related to decoherence), there is no process of selection. The process of quantum decoherence explains in terms of the Schrödinger equation how certain components of the universal wave function become irreversibly dynamically independent of one another (separate worlds — even though there is but one quantum world that does not split). These components may (each) contain definite quantum states of observers, while the total quantum state may not. These observer states may then be assumed to correspond to definite states of awareness (minds), just as in a classical description of observation. States of different observers are consistently entangled with one another, thus warranting objective results of measurements.
However Albert and Loewer suggest that the mental does not supervene on the physical, because individual minds have trans-temporal identity of their own. The mind selects one of these identities to be its non-random reality, while the universe itself is unaffected."
Personally I think the latter is what the show is going with because of the idea that the mind selects one identity to be it's non-random reality. Specifically--the many minds theory fits too with things like a past Des and a present Des switching places, and with Walt's bilocation, and with the ghosts--some of whom have physical manifestation (Christian can hold Aaron).
Then could the relation of vibrations, numbers, and many minds be that whatever was done that messed with the numbers/vibrations and makes necessary the inputting of the numbers, also opened up the possibility of more than on identity manifesting in this reality? And is it going to take a collective mental effort (collective unconscious) to replace the number inputting by the computer? By the way, is this why the numbers had to be put in by a human being...because you needed the subjective mental experience of the numbers, not just entry into a machine?
Heh, does this make any sense?
Many worlds/minds from a neurobiological pov
"The Lie" and the island's disappearance
Jukin and DB were both asking about the island disappearing--which is not at all explained by becoming dislodged in time. At first I was thinking of a simple answer that it got dislodged in space as well, but then I was thinking about the emphasis on the lie that the 6 told, and Hurley's discomfort with the lie in the context of the Many Minds/Worlds idea. Again, according to this theory--every decision we make creates alternative realities in which there is a self that made one decision and a self that made a different decision.
According to Dan--time is like a street, you can move forward or backward but you cannot create a new street. But according to Many Minds/Worlds--every decision creates a different street--not an alternative time line, but an alternative reality. So Dan would be right that on one time line you can only move forward and back. But what happens if there's a way to access those different time lines in the alternative realities--what if a decision from one reality gets put in place of the decision as it was originally made in the original timeline. In other words--if you had reality A and reality B and two different things happened in those realities on Jan. 1, 2005 to John Locke. But then some breach between the realities allows the choice in reality B to replace the choice in reality A. What then happens to the straight line of events that were supposed to follow in reality A? Isn't it off course? And then do you have Locke from reality B showing up in A?
Maybe that's what the Dharma wheel is more than just something that changes time. It opens the "doors of perception" to these other realities--and that's tremendously hazardous. It means that instead of having multiple distinct "ways" or paths (I'm thinking of them as infinite spokes shooting off from the center of the wheel)--by shifting the wheel the paths are merging into each other.
So why did the island disappear and how does this relate to the lie? It is our choices that create the different realities. By choosing the lie have the Oceanic 6 created a merge with a reality in which the island either doesn't exist or doesn't exist where it did (because they claimed there was no island there). And have they killed off everyone by claiming that everyone else died? I wonder if it's significant then that in their version of the story--Boone, Libby, and Charlie initially survived. These three are showing up in the world created by the O6, but only as ghosts. No one else is supposed to exist in their fabrication. And maybe that is why Locke has to die--he should not exist in the world that the O6 created by lying. But the island allowed him to deliver the message before killing him off?
Some details that this might imply:
Desmond is ultimately going to have to be the one who turns the wheel. Whatever makes him special gives him the ability to influence decisions not only to change them, but also to bring them back in line with what they were supposed to be. He is the pilot.
Des's pilot role--he isn't quite sure of the way. Mistakes that he's made in the past have to do with his imperfect sense of the way and trying to fill in the gaps for his own purposes. For instance--what he told Charlie about the helicopter. Notice that Dan mentioned the helicopter to Des when he spoke to him at the hatch door. So Des remembers that the helicopter will rescue them. He filled in the details of who was on the helicopter because some other memory was telling him that Charlie needed to be the one to decode and that this was his way back to Penny. (Des killed Charlie)
Jack is going to be the one who shepherds them back to where they were supposed to be.
Locke--when told by Richard that Richard won't remember him next time and that Locke has to remind Richard of who he is by showing him the compass--means that Locke should pick the compass as a child. Richard will then recognize him and Locke's path will be what it should have been.
Claire and Aaron--have some connection to the stars, the zodiac, and thus are central navigating the right direction (as is Locke in being the compass). I can't quite manage what the distinction is there, but note that there is one.
Hurley is the seer--the truth teller and truth see-er (he sees the people who aren't supposed to exist). His version of the story has to replace the lie. In terms of the Many Minds theory, he will be "Mind" capital "M"--the Jumbotron.
Oh...and an interesting quotation about the many minds/worlds theory which connects with the scene between Kate and Aaron watching cartoons (from the Deutsch article cited below):
"The particular implication of quantum theory that all the fuss is about is of course, as Lockwood puts it, “the simultaneous existence of distinct … experiences” (of a single person). For instance, as I write this, I am having the experience of drinking tea. Quantum theory implies that vast numbers of other experiences of mine, including the experience of drinking coffee at this moment, are also taking place. The reason why I do not have an experience of having all those experiences simultaneously is that the laws of quantum mechanics restrict the operation of our brains so as to confine, as Lockwood puts it, “the gaze of consciousness to a kind of ‘tunnel vision’ directed downwards in the experiential manifold. We cannot look ‘sideways’ through the manifold, any more than we can look ‘upwards’, into the future.” "
Kate believes them to be trapped in the tunnel--but they need to learn to look sideways.
Parallel Worlds//Parallel Lives
The film, Parallel Worlds, Parallel Lives, in which Mark Everett (lead singer of the Eels) documents his quest to find out more about his father, Hugh Everett, the creator of the "Many Worlds" theory will be shown on Nova on October 21 @ 8 pm.
Hey, didn't the Eels appear on the soundtrack of Holes? Holes--Blackholes--portals to other worlds? Just a coincidence?
whoa
I honestly dont know, and am, of course, confused.
Question 1: how does identity relate to Christian holding Aaron?
re: whoa
I'm not sure I'll be able to help unconfuse as I don't fully get this stuff either--I did find this article helpful though: "Comment on 'Many Minds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics by Michael Lockwood" by David Deutsch (unfortunately can't access Lockwood's original article.
Deutsch explains that one philosophical interpretation of quantum theory is that for every experience we have we are simultaneously having all the other possible experiences--I think following from the idea of the connection of the observer to the event in quantum physics. That is, it's the observer who determines the outcome of the event--as in the Schroedinger's Cat thought experiment--and so for every possible outcome (cat dead or alive)--this theory postulates a corresponding observer's experience. Take that idea out across a probability wave and you have all possible experiences existing at once.
Deutsch illustrates this by saying that while writing the article he is drinking tea--but simultaneously he is experiencing every other possible experience--for example drinking coffee, but this experiential version of him (the tea drinker) is only conscious of that experience. It's like thinking about the fact that we exist at all times--but my present day self can only be conscious of the present, and of the past through memory--I'm not conscious of my future self even though it already exists. (And surely the show is making use of this idea with Des.)
He goes on to explain the physical implications of this theory:
"Consequently, whenever I believe that I am perceiving something real – for instance, if I take it that there really is a cup of tea here on the table – quantum theory obliges me to believe the same of those other perceptions which it says that I am also having. In other words, the coffee, and virtually every other physical object that I am capable of perceiving and reporting to you, must be on the table too, though I cannot see them from here."
So physically those other experiences are there but not accessible--what if they became accessible? Christian would not be a ghost but a different experience of Christian--one that wasn't dead and had physical properties. I wonder if that's the importance of the fact that it's his kids who see him and experience him--that is people who have had experiences of Christian like Jack and Claire--this is another possible experience of Christian for them and it is a physical one. Same goes for Hurley's experience of Charlie (Charlie slaps him, and says that he is "here" though dead.)
Hope that helped.
How do we define objective truth?
If an individual determines the macro reality truth/physicality for themselves without affecting the macrorealm (Christian is physical for Claire but a ghost for others) - what defines the macrorealm and the objective truth - is there one?
Wouldn't it be implied that because there are distinct physical repercussions that messing with the vibrations has to affect the macrorealm, outside of the mind of the individual?
Or are we saying that the reality of the universe only exists within an individual's mind?
Macrorealm
K went back to the Green video again. The 20 numbers describe things like the strength of gravity, the mass of electrons, and the strength of the electromagnetic force (ooooo....the light looks different here?). To understand the relation of the numbers to the 10 dimensions--the ten dimensions are intertwined to create a particular shape and the shape determines the way in which the strings vibrate (as the shape of a musical instrument does). If a number changed--change in shape--change in vibration--end of universe.
If you add in the Many Minds theory--you have all the other possible events--(this is probably not what a physicist would say, but could be posited for the show)--then if something Dharma did made it possible for the vibration to change, maybe it opened up the possibility for these events to manifest here, events which are incompatible with the laws of our physical universe?
And idea from the Deutsch article that might be useful as far as objective reality and the mind. He makes a distinction between two terms: "mind" which equals our consciousness and experience of this reality, and "Mind" which is our consciousness in all possible realities. So the mind does not create reality, but if the mind is opened up to the "Mind"--it might have the ability to see, touch, taste, etc. something from one of the other realities in ours and by doing so, that is by experiencing it, it would manifest where it shouldn't be. Oooo I feels spinny...
Vibrational existence
So messing with the numbers correlates to the unbalancing of the vibrations in the balanced set of the 20 numbers foundational to the existence of matter in String theory. It seems to me that by changing the vibrations of the strings, physical reality iteslf is 'knocked loose' in a sense and the collective physical facts within the macrorealm itself become indeterminate. Changing vibrations perhaps could be done in such a way would allow different strings harmonize into the existence of matter that is slightly changed. Coffee was there first on the table, then change the peaks of that vibrations and OMGC - it's tea. I'm sure this is oversimplifying a tad. :)
It could define how Christian can hold Aaron and not be there in another minute. Christian is not a "ghost" per se - but the manifestation of a different vibration of the strings that create our physical macro-reality. But there has to be a balancing of the objective physical facts to correlate with the observations of the participants in that universe.
This could be where the whole "course correcting" notion comes in. - in deciding who gets to live and who dies on the island - and why "the island" might prevent a certain individual from being killed. Then within that macrorealm the facts are always shifting and add up to something different every time. While there is a living Christian - what is the macrorealm price to be paid? Physically does someone else have to die? etc... The result also brings an ever changing perspective of the identity of the individuals within that macro-reality: Jack is hero - Jack is an ass; Ben is great; Ben's a bastard... etc.
Course Correction!
A different experience of Christian
Ok - a question about Christian's clothes. Every time we've seen dead Christian he is wearing a tux, but when we see him holding Aaron he is wearing casual clothes. I don't think that has ever been explained... so I'm thinking that if this instance of Christian was another possible manifestation - or whatever, then it could also explain why he was sporting different clothes? (Assuming this is what happens in the pop culture world)
Clothing
Charlie changed clothing too--appearance at the mental hospital quite different from anywhere else we've seen him. Christian in the tux, and Charlie's appearance at the police station--those two look as they would have looked in this world, while the others look like another possibility. Charlie even looks older and more successful.
So I can actually explain the changed clothes version in that Many Worlds context better than I can the tux version. The tux version seems more like the traditional version of a ghost. And we haven't any evidence of it's physicality. I'd say the same of the two Charlie appearances. The Charlie that looks like our Charlie--more like a ghost or vision--disappeared when the cop entered. Charlie at the mental hospital slaps Hurley. Doesn't it seem in both that case and the one of casually dressed Christian that the writers are making a point to show physical manifestation?
Maybe the "ghostly" version is a product of the observer's mind and the observer does something that opens the way for an appearance of a "real" being. Somehow that seems too complicated to explain on the show, but it's all I got.
Counterpoint
Evidence of the tux version of Christian's physicality -
When Jack first chases Christian into the treeline, he touches his shoulder and Christian turns around.
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Wow...
Ohh noes, I feel dizzy...
Ok, composing myself now... I think it's an excellent theory. I especially like how the many-minds theory would explain the physical manifestations like Christian holding Aaron.
Do you think something like this will be explained in the show or will it be one of those endless amounts of potential possibilities that it's simply open for discussion?
How it might work on the show...
I think the idea that the numbers are connected to some foundational aspect of the universe is easy to introduce, the element of observation and subjectivity is already there, and the idea that choices create branching dimensions is one that's pretty familiar as a narrative device in sci-fi. So with a few adaptations, I think the writers can bring all this in without having a heavy duty Quantum Physics explanation while at the same time making enough connections that the people who want to see the more in-depth connections will find them.
(heh, shouldn't that be "Oh nose...I feel dizzy" :-)
Oh nose....
OK I'm digging this theory but there are of course some aspects that I don't quite understand (at least in this version of myself. I'm sure in one of the other versions of me I completely understand all of this.) I'm not quite clear on the distinction between the physical objects and those that aren't real. The version of Charlie in the police station was clearly a vision and not a physical manifestation. But the version of him at the Santa Rosa garden was a physical manifestation that was observed by another person. So what's the deal with Dave? I assume that he was always just a figment of Hurley's imagination on the island and off. But what was the point of his appearance on the island? I've always assumed that the island created the vision of Dave - but the question that lingers for me is why? What was the purpose of that vision? It led Hurley to nearly leap off a cliff.
We know that the island still has a use for Hurley as evidenced by Christian and the cabin appearing to him. But why would the island create a vision that nearly causes the death of someone who still has work to do? Hurley continues to have an increasing role in altering events (a.k.a. saving Jin, Sayid and Bernard) so the island creating a vision that tells him to jump off the cliff makes no sense.
Unless the vision was created by someone else. Jaz, is there any room in that theory for multiple perceptions? Could somone "impose" a reality that leads the viewer to see things as they want them to see? (If so I need to learn how to do that before my next poker game!)
I think I missed this before...