Des, the Swan experiment, and Jack's role

Yeah J-man, I agree--maybe even pushing the buttons released a dose of the e-m in some way by lowering/raising a shield?

A number of those points I think are right--about the kids, about Ben and Alex.  And yeah, I like that description about Widmore and Des--he was just getting that journal when Des shows up wanting Penny's address, and we know now that he was also in touch with Dan so prolly would have known of Des's appearance there--so I'm thinking maybe Widmore had Des's arrest and release maneouvered in such a way that the time would be right for sending him out on the race and for giving him the motivation to do it.

... in nine days the button will be pushed precisely 120 times.  Actually, the button will be pushed a whole number of times every three days.  (40 times every three days, to be precise.)

You make some interesting points, J. 

Looking back, that Kelvin character was sort of odd. He feeds Desmond with the "let's save the world" story. Ok, I don't think I'd have believed a single word, but I guess that sort of things sound different when you're in Desmond's situation at the moment.

Then the way he first talks about the failsafe key just doesn't make sense. I mean, he was supposed to be training his replacement, so that was part of the protocol and should have been discussed much more matter-of-factly. It was as if the existence of the failsafe key was something secret, but that anyway you had to know just in case things went for the worse. And that must be the reason why Kelvin told Desmond about the failsafe mechanism while being drunk. Yeah, right.

But there's this last thing: the rip on the hazmat suit. If Kelvin believed all he had told Desmond, I'm sure he wouldn't be that careless with his only suit. What's more, most probably he wouldn't have let Desmond inside his safe environment, but hey ho.

So all this rambling of mine points to this: Kelvin was Dharma's last man on the Island, and his mission was to ensure the candidates knew about the failsafe key, because that was the last step to be taken to create the last rule-breaker. In fact, I don't believe the implosion of the Swan was something unexpected; the Dharma guys wouldn't risk to allow the creation of another "bad" rule-breaker, as Widmore was.

I still don't know whether the plane crash was fortuite or caused. I'm tempted to think Kelvin's death was staged; Kelvin made pretty obvious display of his tore hazmat suit, as if he wanted Desmond to follow him; then provoked him with the "I'm repairing your boat, but you're staying" story, maybe to keep him away from the Swan long enough for something to happen.

To what purpose? Well, I find difficult to believe that Kelvin had information about the plane crash... except if he had it from another paradoxical source. If I want to stay away from paradoxes as much as I can --although I'm afraid the writers will abuse the paradox "deux-ex-machina", and that's why I don't really like the show anymore-- I'd have to say Kelvin wanted the sky to turn purple so Desmond was scared big time and wouldn't ever think of not pushing the button.

Moreover, the plane crash being fortuituous would leave room for some "mystical" angle... that would be handy in helping explain why Desmond had to be "called to order" by Mrs. Hawking when he lost focus as soon as he became a rule-breaker.

I thought the reason Kelvin treated the key as a big secret was that once someone knew about the key there would be the temptation to leave off the whole button pushing, turn the key and have done with it--but the powers that be don't want them to have that option.  They want them there pushing that button, with only one person knowing that there's an alternative in case things go pear-shaped (I mean if things go dreadfully wrong).

When you say Kelvin's death was staged--do you mean he might still be alive?   

I'm torn in two there, jazzers. I don't remember that episode really well, but as far as I do there was no trace of Kelvin's corpse, right?

I wouldn't dismiss the idea of Kelvin sacrificing himself for the greater good, à la Mrs. Klugh. But this wouldn't be the only case of "can't-die-now-the-Island-won't-allow-it" that we've met, right? So, à la Bakunin, maybe?

I'm a grinning here :-)

There was no trace of Kelvin's corpse and when Miles's "body" was discovered by Jack, Kate & Dan it was right in that same area--no sign of it.

After Widmore's failure as a faithful member of Dharma, there was the need for a better selection process for candidates to rule-breaker. As I'm guessing the "incident" was caused for Widmore's abuse of his "powers", Dharma had to redesign the Swan in order to mitigate the effects of the "incident". That might well require a periodic signal to be sent somewhere in order to contain the electromagnetic energy, as has been speculated for ages. But, at the same time, it was designed as a test.

New candidates needed to be 'good people'. They needed to be commited to the task of saving the world... indeed, the worlds, but that was something the candidate didn't need to know. There's such thing as too much weirdness. They needed to be strong-willed enough to undertake the task without complaining too much, and without leaving everything behind. So that's why the task of entering the numbers required a human and a keyboard, and that's the ultimate reason for the Pearl.

At some point, Ben --chosen as rule-breaker before the new selection process was used-- decides to "go all Hostile" against Dharma. The purge happens. The Swan experiment is forgotten. You know, all the Dharma stations are just for... silly experiments. :-)

Ben despised Dharma's methods --although he later commits their same sin: he becomes a "pharisee"-- so, even if he saw Desmond operating the Swan, why should he care? Desmond was inside the station, fooled by the "quarantine" signs and the hazmat suit. Ben was king of the Island and had a magic crystal ball in the Pearl in case he wanted to take a look at the key-pushing fool.

In the meantime, Desmond proved to be what the extinct Dharma was looking for: a 'good man', but also a constant man --pun intended. The problem here was that none of the original Dharma team was available to guide him in the next steps... or was it?

While driving back home, I was thinking about this thread and suddenly I saw the light. I guess I know how to intertwine (LC+jaz)'s idea with mine. But I'll start by restating my latest "wild idea":

"Entering numbers is required both to test candidates (Jacob's list seems fitting here) and as a substitute mechanism to hold the multiverse together until the Fixed Point has been effectively achieved. Which won't happen until the selected candidate turns the failsafe key and is invested of "specialness" (whose first manifestations are the "flashes").

Lack of focus during the Swan phase makes the multiverse shatter and mingle. Using a "Dark Tower" reference, it would cause the opening of a "thinnie", a rip on the fabric of space-time-reality that allows inter-universe travelling. In the "Dark Tower" series, you can cross a "thinnie" without noticing it, but maybe the LOST crew wanted the crossing to be more traumatic, hence the plane crash."

(LC+jaz)'s proposal is that entering the numbers was required to create a rule-breaker out of the person who was entering them. I don't think that is the case. As I said, one of the purposes for entering the numbers was to test the candidate.

I'm with jaz on thinking Jacob made a list of people who could do as rule-breakers, given the appropriate "treatment", or "training", or both. I think Dharma already found one appropriate candidate and made a rule-breaker out of him, but he turned to be a bad person and abused the power he had been given --maybe even causing the "incident". This person is Charles Widmore, and the only backup I can provide to support this notion are Ben Linus' words ("He changed the rules") and the nightmares Widmore says he has. I believe he was exiled off the Island because of that abuse of his abilities as rule-breaker.

I believe Ben Linus was the next rule-breaker chosen after Widmore's failure. "I know who you are, boy. What you are. I know that everything you have you took from me", says our friend Charles Widmore. This might imply there can be only a rule-breaker, or maybe that a rule-breaker can only "operate" while in contact --even remote-- with the Island itself.

I don't think Widmore and Ben are rule breakers in the sense that Des is.  I think Des is unique.  If the special ones just exist without an explanation of how they came to be then you're leaving unconnected the mechanism you've already established--the electormagnetism.  In the Constant they not only show that happening to Eloise but it draws a nice analogy to Desmond on his little exercise wheel/bike in the Swan--the guys in the Swan are human rats in the same kind of experiment that Dan was conducting.  And they've shown that exposure to the radiation can make people crazy like Radzinksy.  I like the addition that it is also a test--to see how heroic someone is--how long will they stick with pushing this button in order to save the world? 

I'm guessing that the incident had to do with Widmore's grab for power on the island.  I think he did want the power of a rule-breaker and discovered it could be gained through the electro-magnetism--he tried to break through into the place where the donkey wheel was.  He did what Mark Wickmund/Marvin Candle/Pierre Chang warned them not to.  (This might be far-fetched, but Pierre Chang--Pierre=Peter=Rock; Rock Change?)  

Whatever happened in the incident, it exiled Widmore from the island in the same way that Ben now is.

The change in rules--killing Alex and now Ben saying he will Penny--I'm not clear about what the rules are, but something about who lives, who dies, and when, and about bodies coming onto the island from out side, and the Others always burying their dead at sea--all those things have to connect to me and must have to do with the avoidance of paradox.  I also think Ben originally changed the rules in letting Juliet live but get marked.

And the fact that the whispers, as far as I know, are all of people who one of the Losties is responsible for killing--Duckett, the torture victims Sayid hears, Boone, Shannon--again seems connected though I don't exactly know how.

"I don't think Widmore and Ben are rule breakers in the sense that Des is.  I think Des is unique." --jaz

Yeah, my point exactly :-) Now, to be honest, I'm not that sure about Ben, but I am pretty sure about Widmore. The problem with Widmore is, precisely, that he's not Desmond. He may be a rule-breaker, but not a Fixed Point. Usign again the "Dark Tower" analogy, he's the Crimson King. He probably has the power to keep the multiverse holding together, but he won't; he'd rather destroy it. Desmond won't, because he's "one of the good guys", and he's proven to be.

"If the special ones just exist without an explanation of how they came to be then you're leaving unconnected the mechanism you've already established--the electormagnetism." --jaz

Touché. But not dead, yet :-) I didn't say the special ones were special per se. In fact, my words were "I'm with jaz on thinking Jacob made a list of people who could do as rule-breakers, given the appropriate "treatment", or "training", or both." The appropriate "treatment" would surely involve the powerful  electromagnetic source on the Island, I agree on that.

[Note: will be back with further arguments, I got to go now... :)]

[Note #2: Back.]

"In the Constant they not only show that happening to Eloise but it draws a nice analogy to Desmond on his little exercise wheel/bike in the Swan--the guys in the Swan are human rats in the same kind of experiment that Dan was conducting. And they've shown that exposure to the radiation can make people crazy like Radzinksy." --jaz

Whoa, there... First, "The Constant" was an episode all about mind time-travelling (a concept that I deemed as an ingenious way of bending the rules of "no time travel"). Second, what Dan was exposing Eloise to was radiation, not electromagnetism --heh, go parry that, you ninjazz :-) 

Of course "Jughead" suddenly reveals to us that a leaking nuclear bomb has been captured in the Island --yes, I think it was "captured"-- so radiation is also at work over there. Or was, before Faraday told the Others --no more Hostiles, then? Or not yet Hostiles?-- to bury it.

"I like the addition that it is also a test--to see how heroic someone is--how long will they stick with pushing this button in order to save the world?" --jaz

Why, thank you. :-)

"I'm guessing that the incident had to do with Widmore's grab for power on the island." --jaz

Agreed.

"I think he did want the power of a rule-breaker and discovered it could be gained through the electro-magnetism--he tried to break through into the place where the donkey wheel was." --jaz

Plausible. And not completely in conflict with my version. Let's just say I was wrong with the timeline. Instead of having Widmore first invested as rule-breaker, then abusing his powers and therefore causing the incident, and finally expelled from the Island in favour of --or by orders from-- Ben Linus, let's say you're right. Let's say Widmore entered where he shouldn't, therefore causing the incident but, at the same time, becoming a rule-changer.

Makes sense, and fits nicely with what happened to Desmond. Sudden exposure to electromagnetism, causing an "incident" --in Desmond's case, the imposion of the Swan-- and becoming a rule-changer.

"He did what Mark Wickmund/Marvin Candle/Pierre Chang warned them not to.  (This might be far-fetched, but Pierre Chang--Pierre=Peter=Rock; Rock Change?)" --jaz

Not as far-fetched as Frank Lapidus = Lapis ex coelis. Besides, I like it. :-)

"Whatever happened in the incident, it exiled Widmore from the island in the same way that Ben now is." --jaz

I still think he was expelled for causing the incident. Maybe his punishment was executed by making him turn the Wheel...

"The change in rules--killing Alex and now Ben saying he will Penny--I'm not clear about what the rules are, but something about who lives, who dies, and when, and about bodies coming onto the island from out side, and the Others always burying their dead at sea--all those things have to connect to me and must have to do with the avoidance of paradox.  I also think Ben originally changed the rules in letting Juliet live but get marked.

And the fact that the whispers, as far as I know, are all of people who one of the Losties is responsible for killing--Duckett, the torture victims Sayid hears, Boone, Shannon--again seems connected though I don't exactly know how." --jaz

Change in rules. Ok, what if Ben "knew" Alex couldn't die, same way Michael couldn't die? What if Widmore the rule-breaker did a dirty trick and manipulated the timelines so Alex could die? On the other hand, maybe Juliet had to die. Then Ben the rule-breaker did another dirty trick and manipulated the timelines so Juliet could live. I agree I'm going out on a limb there, but... somehow it makes sense to me.

However, you make an interesting point about the possible relationship between the whispers, the Others' burials, and an "avoidance of paradox"... I'll have to think about that, but after getting some sleep... :)

He probably has the power to keep the multiverse holding together, but he won't; he'd rather destroy it.

See I think if Widmore had the same power as Des Armageddon would have already happened.   And why is Widmore manipulating to get Des there (which I think he is) if he already has this power.  He wouldn't want another rival.  I think he wants Des to get it so he can use it through Des.

Second, what Dan was exposing Eloise to was radiation, not electromagnetism.

(a touch, a touch, I do confess) Arghh...I don't like this about this show--too many variables, not enough constants.  I dunno--why have one explanation in "Flashes" about mind-travelling (implosion=electromagnetic exposure?) and another in "The Constant"?  It dun make eny sense, brutha...

Not as far-fetched as Frank Lapidus = Lapis ex coelis. Besides, I like it. :-)

Thanks :-)  I think there's also a Wickmund/Desmond/Axis Mundi connection but not sure what it is. Could Wickmund be about time (wicks on candles as old time measurement) and world (mund)?  Desmond about man and world?  The former some kind of objective time measurement that's been disrupted.  Desmond bringing back in the subjective measure?  The time of the world is up?  Desmond as man trying to change that destiny?

Then Ben the rule-breaker did another dirty trick and manipulated the timelines so Juliet could live. I agree I'm going out on a limb there, but... somehow it makes sense to me.

That makes sense to me too.  I think he broke the rules that way and that might explain why we were shown Ben's obsessiveness with Juliet.

"See I think if Widmore had the same power as Des Armageddon would have already happened." ---jaz

I was operating under the assumption made in Part I: "I believe Ben Linus was the next rule-breaker chosen after Widmore's failure. 'I know who you are, boy. What you are. I know that everything you have you took from me', says our friend Charles Widmore. This might imply there can be only a rule-breaker, or maybe that a rule-breaker can only "operate" while in contact --even remote-- with the Island itself.

That's the reason why Widmore can't use his powers anymore. That's the reason why he's been looking for the Island since he was expelled from there. And that's why he wants Desmond there.

Oh, there's no possibility of Widmore looking at Desmond as a rival. "Jughead"  showed us how proud Widmore is; the way he talked about Locke being unable --of course-- to follow his tracks, without even knowing nil from the man he was talking about. The scene with Sun ("I will be respected, Sun"; Sun, not Mrs. Kwon) proves that years didn't make him grow in that aspect. Widmore has no rivals.

Desmond is not a rival, although is someone the Island would want. He probably would have a puppet made out of Desmond, via Penny --but I'm guessing Penny didn't like the idea. So instead he let him go as bait. As a beacon. Take me to something... Island made. :-)

Ahh, right, right.  I get what you're saying.

What would be happening with Des now then as he no longer is in contact with the island?  Or if he's in "remote" contact--what does that mean, and why wouldn't it apply to Ben or Widmore?

So if that makes Desmond Ben's actual successor, I wonder what that says of Locke's role.  It does make me think again of the other button pushers, and other people exposed in the implosion.  Other button pushers would be Locke, Jack, Eko?  Umm, Michael once that I can remember.  Anyone else?  Implosion guys are Des, Locke, Eko, and Charlie.  I wonder if Eko was killed because he didn't have the right attitude to be a change agent.

Ahem. Button pushers. As long as they were not inside the Swan at the time of its implosion, I'd say they can't be Fixed Points. Anyway, Jack wasn't in Jacob's list, and we were working under the assumption that Jacob had made a list with people who might be turned into Fixed Points... Maybe Charlie & Eko weren't on the list, either.

I don't remember anyone mentioning Locke as figuring in Jacob's list, but I guess that goes without saying. Unless... well, unless he's not. Lemme explain. I've got a vibe since Season 3 about the Others having two leaders, the 'operative' and the 'spiritual', so to say. Richard was obviously an 'operative' leader of the Hostiles/Others. My guess is that they had no 'spiritual' leader at the time Richard met young Ben in the jungle. A meeting that probably happened shortly after John failed Richard's test. A gap had been filled, although there was much to investigate first --as Richard said, their selecting process starts at a v--very, very young age.

The problem with Ben is that he won't be OK with part of the leadership --that's something he's got in common with Locke, by the way. So I'm guessing Ben goes little by little assuming the 'operative' leadership, also. What is more, I think Ben doesn't feel that 'spiritual'. That's something Richard doesn't quite like, nor Locke either.

What I'm pointing to is this: Locke is following Ben's steps, even against his own judgement. He obviously has some 'spiritual' capabilities, but he's an 'operative' kind of person --the knife, not the compass. So even if Locke could have been what Ben couldn't --'operative' and 'spiritual' leader at the same time-- he won't. Locke, by his own choices, becomes Richard's successor, which wouldn't mean that much if not because Ben conveniently vanishes.

Anyway, I still think there are some kind of 'powers that be' aligned in two sides --white vs black, as in backgammon. One of the sides trying to win by giving Locke the mantle of leadership. The other one by pulling a joker out of the sleeve: Desmond, the unwilling 'spiritual' leader. The Fixed Point.

ETA: I almost forgot you were wondering what about Desmond now that he's away from the Island. That's a difficult one. Maybe, being Faraday's constant, he keeps a link to the Island, even if he doesn't know? And maybe that's why "past" Desmond hears Dan, but not Sawyer, knocking the door? Hm...