Dead is Dead: Discussion
Random thoughts to kick off a discussion:
Thought this was a great episode--I love the Ben/Locke dynamic and the episode strongly reinforced my feeling that things like the Dharma picture appearing in Ben's house is not because of a timeline alteration. I don't think it was ever there before Christian shows it to Sun. I'm not sure what it means that it's there with Christian. One possibility is that Smokie can manifest objects for the island's purposes. Another would be that this is a spilling of one reality into another. Anyway--I don't think timetravel is going to be the key to unlocking the island.
Ben's judgment: Ben has always been one of my favorite characters, and Michael Emerson's acting is just fantastic--which might actually be bad news for me 'cause I have a bad feeling about Ben's eventual fate after last night. The bad feeling's based on Illana's "What lies in the shadow of the statue?" line, and Smokie/Alex making Ben promise that he will follow John absolutely and not try to kill him. Ben promised but I believe he's lying. So I think he'll try again and next time Smokie won't let him live.
The hieroglyphs over the vent where Smokie emerged--it's Anubis and Ammit. That makes Smokie Ammit--not completely new info as Ammit's pretty similar to the idea of Cerberus, except that Ammit's more than a guardian. Ammit gets fed the hearts of those who are weighed after death and found to have heavy hearts (in Egyptian belief the idea that the heart is weighed against a feather). Smokie is then both part of the system of judgment, and eventually composed of all the dead who have failed to move on to a higher place? Why Alex then or Yemi? Or perhaps it is more that it can manifest as vengeful images of the ones who are being judged. Anyway, I think this connects up with Prof's post about Miles and the concept of death and my recent find about Jainism and karmic particle residue.
The island's two forces, redemption and judgment: Once again it seems there are two forces within the island itself--a force directed at redemption and resurrection and one directed at judgment and death/haunting. The release of water to summon Smokie reinforced this idea. Water symbolizes redemption, baptism, rebirth. And it acts as a barrier that has to be released when summoning Smokie. Any accident that Smokie is on an island then? Water protecting the rest of the world from the final judgment? What happens if Jughead goes off though? Smokie as fallout on the rest of the world=end of days.
The forces show up in the characters (they contain their own contradictions)--Widmore sends Ben to kill Rousseau and Alex, but can't kill Alex himself, and "breaks the rules" by having a baby with someone off the island. Ben breaks the same rules I think in raising Alex. Ben is a mass murderer and yet is a protector of children; he wants to act as a force of judgment in killing Penny, but is held back by the sight of Charlie. I think it's brilliant the way his own family history is working in there as well.
The judgment force of the island (the rules, the Book of Laws, the Pharisees) does not want new life on the island; the redemptive, rebirth side does. I think the statue is going to wind up representing the rebirth side--so I'm betting it's not Annubis but one of the female deities associated with protection of pregnancy and childbirth.
Locke has become the representative of the rebirth side. When Ben "falls"--he is judged by Smokie--he is lifted up by Locke. (Did anyone notice what Ben's position was when he fell?)
Locke's knowledge--he just knows. Completely different than the striving after knowledge he represents in S2.
We can also see the two forces at work in the scene when Caesar is killed (Locke/Jesus about to be killed by Caesar?). Locke was very Obi-Wan Kenobi in that scene. The way he told Caesar that Caesar was going to let him take the boat sounded very like he was expecting to use a Jedi mind trick--so I laughed when that didn't work and Ben killed him instead (Raiders of the Lost Ark meets Star Wars!). And I wondered if Ben's selfish plan (which was to get Caesar to kill Locke I think) got thwarted by the island--which made Ben shoot Caesar instead.
One random question: On what basis would Lapidus refer to Ben as a murderer?
All good thoughts, Jaz...
... and was it just me, or was it a little surprising that Widmore was banished AFTER the purge?
But then of course, it isn't as though this is some great revelation. There's still quite a bit of "telling us lots of stuff without telling us anything at all" going on.
nothing from nothing leaves nothing
"There's still quite a bit of "telling us lots of stuff without telling us anything at all" going on."
Amen, and its getting more than annoying.
But maybe its not coincidental that Widmore was banished after the purge. We don't know who Faraday's father is - yet - or the woman Charles had relations with off island. That's probably the critical clue to be revealed in a future episode. For all we know Charles had the hots for a Dharma chick but when they wiped them out, he had to go looking elsewhere.
Maybe Charles is like Zeus: father to many, just by way of different mothers...
Widmore's banishment
I liked the way that was handled because it wasn't a "Duh...duh...daaaaa" moment at all. Not like he turned the wheel and got thrown off, or that he staged some big coup, or was responsible for the incident--nope, he just had a child off the island with an outsider and gets sent off on the sub.
My impression is that we're getting a lot of unreliable narration this season which is leading to speculations like--Ben got kicked off for turning the wheel, therefore Widmore must have done it at some point. We're getting distracted by all the mechanics like time travel, the wheel, the Temple, and something much simpler is going on at the level of character. And I liked this episode because it drew attention back to that.
One thing I remember in light of this episode and Widmore's and Ben's banishments is what Kate said to Locke that he is so strongly connected to the island because he doesn't have any strong connection to another person.
Forgot an Our Mutual Friend connection
Forgot something I was thinking about when I realized that the name of the Humes's boat is Our Mutual Friend. The name of Desmond's previous boat, given to him by Libby, was the Elizabeth. In Our Mutual Friend, one of the main female characters, the one who is a boatsman's daughter, is Lizzie. Lizzie's abilities with a boat are central to the plot. And the novel is very much about judgment and resurrection--the resurrection all coming out of water--out of drownings or near drownings. There are two main plots--one involves a young man coming back from overseas when his father dies in order to take over the immense family wealth. The source of the wealth is...dust...or at least that's what it is euphemistically called. It's more literally droppings of all kinds--mostly animal--left in the streets, and rubbish more generally.The young man, John Harmon, is apparently drowned by someone immediately after arriving in London. It's really someone else who drowns, by John takes the opportunity to assume a disguise and see how some folks get on with life thinking that he's dead.
The person who pulls the body from the river is Lizzie. And that's what boatmen generally (another euphemism)--pull bodies from the river and go through the pockets before handing them over to the authorities. Lizzie rows the boat for her father while he hauls in the bodies.
Much later in the novel, a man who is obsessed with Lizzie tries to kill another man (Eugene Wrayburn) involved with her by drowning him. Lizzie rescues the drowning man--and after the drowning he becomes a new man--resurrected.
John Harmon is--"Our Mutual Friend." He comes back to life by appearing dead and then reappearing alive at the end of the novel. Eugene Wrayburn becomes a new man and a better one after being rescued by Lizzie.
Don't know what other tie-ins to make there, except for the water-resurrection one but just thinking about how Ben kind of got resurrected himself in several ways last night--out of the water and then being given a second chance (the apology to Desmond was probably significant there--but hey, how about an apology to Penny! She was the one he almost killed for goo'ness sakes!)
Concerning John's knowledge...
What're the chances really that John is the smoke monster? How else does he suddenly know so much about the temple and further that this is the place Ben ought to be judged? There's a very strong parallel in last night's ep with John and Smokey in terms of redemption and judgement on Ben (John asking for an apology, imposing hierarchy on Ben, knowing that he's lying, etc). And Ben telling Sun to go inside because the thing that was about to come out of the jungle he has no control of... and then John comes out. Then of course you have things like the episode title "Dead is Dead", and what Ben was saying about John's "ressurection" - he's seen the island perform miraculous things but nothing like that. Curious.
John=Smokie?
Smoke on the water...not
Just was thinking of some further implications if we go on the assumption that Smokie can't cross water (strangely these implications came to me while showering--really, I should hire someone to follow me around and sporadically dump water on my head).
I guess even though there did seem to be a lot of clues pointing to Locke being Smokie as you pointed out (including the comical one of Locke coming out of the jungle)--I'm just wondering if there being so many is a misdirection.
If the whole pulling the plug thingy was about releasing a water barrier around Smokie, and this means it can't cross water--then the fact that Locke was on the Hydra (appropriately named) island would mean he couldn't be Smokie.
That's also interesting then about why the Others would set up a base on a different island. What are they doing there that they don't want any interference from Smokie? Ditto the takeover and use of the Looking Glass station. And the burials of the bodies at sea.
Locke doesn't smoke
No way Locke is Smokey. Smokey can take human form, but he's not a human being. The heiroglyph on the wall tells us Smokey dates back to the Egyptians. And he looks evil to me with the satanic horns.
Smokey is the guardian of the island. Interesting that when it judged Ben, it viewed both his positive treatment and negative treatment of Alex. If Ben hadn't sacrificed Alex to save the island, I think Ben would have been killed.
Therefore a key criteria to Smokey's judgement is what have you done for the island? Eko, burp. Chick in Rousseau's crew, burp. Juliet, live (helping the inhabitants survive). John, live. Ben, live (for now).
John's knowledge
I really liked it when Ben had that line about the thing he has no control over and out walks Locke!
I kinda hope Locke isn't Smokie, 'cause it seems like Smokie is all about the judging and Locke isn't. I didn't really take the apology line as his acting as judge--though you're right, he did take a certain glee in the reversal of roles.
The fact that this would be totally new to Ben (if we can believe him)--hasn't Ben experienced Smokie manifesting as people--like his Mother?
Bur definitely Locke is in even closer connection to the island than he was before. Hmmm, rather than Smokie, has Locke become the rain?
John in Egyptian Mythology
Rereading the Egyptian Mythology thread reminded myself that I was identifying Ben with Set--and then that would make Locke Osiris--killed by Set and resurrected.
Maybe Vincent is Anubis!!
Osiris
From Wiki:
Osiris was an Egyptian god, usually called the god of the Afterlife.
Osiris is one of the oldest gods for whom records have been found; one of the oldest known attestations of his name is on the Palermo Stone of around 2500 BC. He was widely worshiped until the suppression of the Egyptian religion during the Christian era. The information we have on the myths of Osiris is derived from allusions contained in the Pyramid Texts (ca. 2400 BC), later New Kingdom source documents such as the Shabaka Stone and the Contending of Horus and Seth, and much later, in narrative style from the writings of Greek authors including Plutarch and Diodorus Siculus.
Osiris was not only a merciful judge of the dead in the afterlife, but also the underworld agency that granted all life, including sprouting vegetation and the fertile flooding of the Nile River. The Kings of Egypt were associated with Osiris in death — as Osiris rose from the dead they would, in union with him, inherit eternal life through a process of imitative magic. By the New Kingdom all people, not just pharaohs, were believed to be associated with Osiris at death if they incurred the costs of the assimilation rituals.
Osiris was at times considered the oldest son of the Earth god, Geb, and the sky goddess, Nut as well as being brother and husband of Isis, with Horus being considered his posthumously begotten son.
Osiris' mother was Nut - now doesn't that make sense? And if we find out Horace is John Locke's son, well wouldn't that just be synchronicity all over the place.
Osiris
"Osiris' mother was Nut" 
"sprouting vegetation"--maybe John has moved from being a hunter to a farmer? The fact that Osiris dies and is reborn and his sacrifice associated with the renewal of crops--also sounds a lot like the vegetation myths of the Winter King/Green Man. And then those connect up to the Fisher King myth and the Grail quest stories. I'm still thinking that Locke isn't the complete recipe for what the island needs--he isn't the hero of the Fisher King story, but more the sacrifice. I think Desmond's the hero--it's some combination of the two of them that's necessary. So it's interesting that this episode centered on Ben's relationship with Locke in the present and Des in the flashback.
John's recipe
I agree, John's not the complete recipe, but he's definitely different. More complacent and sure of himself. I like what you said about him being like Obe-Won
Desmond as hero - yes, with help from Jack. It'll take both the Flash and Superman to course correct this debacle!
The blackboard