The Incident
I'm going to have to watch it again 'cause I think I missed a lot--but I thought it was a great episode generally. I've been loving Juliet all season and I loved her heroism and leadership here with one important exception--the writers really undercut it by giving her the line about the way Sawyer looked at Kate. That was completely unnecessary, also her whole mind-changing stuff seemed unexplained except as a plot device.
Anyway, what I thought I'd do here is sketch out some ideas about this episode and the way it fits into the overall arc without going into too many details:
The big reveal of the 2 main players: Jacob and ?--I'm pretty sure "?" is Smokie. I'll just call him/it Smokie for now. And Jacob/Smokie representing the Free Will/Determinism divide (more on their other associations later).
I think it's clear to me now why the season has been such a downer--it's been all about Smokie's move in the game so they're getting more and more locked (heh) into their fate (retro's description of them being in Hell).
So the final move--these episodes:
The two plots tied together to me in thinking that the incident freed Smokie from some kind of prison and then the present day plot allowed him to manipulate by getting Locke's body to the island and appearing as if he were the new leader.
The Incident as Birth of Smokie--implications: I noticed one important thing about the portrayal of the accident which link up to Smokie from later on--the dragging of Juliet by the chain and then Juliet herself. The first probably doesn't need explanation--the chain becomes something Smokie can use or act like (and has the added association of fate with being chained). But the second--is this the origin of the pregnancy problems because Juliet was pregnant? That would have a nice circular irony with Juliet recruited to cure the pregnancy problems which are a manifestation of her own death when pregnant (and the karmic dust that surrounds her at that moment becoming part of Smokie).
Who they are:
Well the main thing I was reminded of from the beginning of the ep was God & Satan in the story of Job. Which I think will be cool as long as it doesn't become too much of a force of good vs. force of evil story. I didn't completely catch their dialogue--but the Smokie guy (in black shirt) was clearly espousing the "they'll never change" side. Jacob said there was progress up until the end? I thought Rose and Bernard seemed to represent having reached the end--getting out of the loop.
It reminded me of several other posts:
on Determinism/Free Will as the two sides, and drawing people to the island (like the people on the Black Rock) as "minds" needed for the game: Distractions and Theory Merge. Interesting to think of Jacob's role being to change minds--offer them choice to expand consciousness. In that post--what I was associating to Richard I think could now be associated to Jacob. So that would make them also
Jesus vs. The Grand Inquisitor
as Consciousness (creation) vs. Entropy (chaos)
on them as Horus and Set.
Horus loses an eye in battle, Set a testicle (and cannot reproduce). So all the one-eye references seem to connect to Jacob?
on the various moves of the game being played: Speculation & Hypothetical Rules of Succession.
Possibly Desmond as the wild card between these two factions? Thinking about how Locke (the real one) was probably strongly tied to Jacob.
And so you have Jacob associated with redemption, rain, the Hanged Man. Odin, Cyclops? Jacob (as in Jacob and Esau)--Shepherds.
Smokie is what precedes the rain, fate, the snake in the Garden of Eden, Esau
Is Desmond going to be the World card and thus usher in a new age? (Locke vs. Desmond)
The next move in the game--while both plots turned to Smokie's advantage (or Esau, Satan, Set, Loki..)--I think each move has a countermove. The countermove was foreshadowed in Jacob saying "They're coming." While the incident releases Smokie it also propels some of the Losties back from 1977 to the present. And now they will also have been exposed to an EM explosion just as Des was. I think that's Jacob's countermove.
Oh and one minor point/question about Jacob's visits to Losties in the past: Sawyer and Kate--as children and both promise something they later go back on. Jack, Locke, Hurley, Sayid as adults. Juliet not visited. Wonder what the differences between child/adult promise/not promise are? And also--did Jacob say anything to Hurley that would explain why Hurley took the guitar case onto the plane? (I can't remember)
Weaving
Again I need to rewatch but two associations off the top of my head:
The Fates--but perhaps in Jacob's case he is not determining the narrative of their lives but attempting to revise it. Ala Hurley's revision of The Empire Strikes Back.
I have this feeling that Hurley will become Jacob's replacement. It seems significant that he gave him the guitar case (make your own kind of music) and spoke to him of his power to see the dead.
Penelope--who undid what she wove each day at night to stall until Odysseus could arrive.
The second seems even more on target for what Jacob was doing--it describes what he talks about at the beginning of the episode--doing something over and over (with some progress made each time) until you can reach a significant change/end. And this also points to Desmond's return and importance.
"It only ends once..."
"... anything that happens before that is just progress."
I've been trying to figure out what this statement is supposed to mean. It's suggested in the opening conversation of the finale that Jacob has some abiding hope in... I don't know... humanity or something... while the man he's talking to does not. Jacob's comment seems to be saying that his friend is judging humans too quickly... the fact that the same thing seems to happen over and over is evidence that the process (whatever that is) isn't finished yet, and if one looks closely enough one will see that the apparent cycle of corruption is not perfectly repeated each time. There is improvement and progression.
Notice that Jacob is clad in white while his friend is wearing black.
The man in black did refer to Jacob as friend, and it seemed to me that he didn't necessarily hate Jacob. When he asked Jacob, "Do you have any idea how badly I want to kill you?" you could almost imagine him saying instead, "I'm the guardian of this place. It's my nature. When you consistently act as a force that brings hostility here, it calls out my purpose. It stirs me to execute the mission I was designed to perform. You become the greatest enemy of this island, and so my entire being is singularly driven to your annihilation. Do you comprehend any of that?"
Who are these men? Perhaps a literal answer doesn't matter... perhaps it wouldn't make sense. But they are clearly the yin and the yang of the island.
Reference is made to a loophole... which indirectly makes reference to rules. Like the rules someone changed before Alex was killed. It'll be interesting to find out what all of these rules are... and why they are as they are. That is... if we ever learn those things.
So why not end it?
Esau's calmly stated "Do you know how badly I want to kill you?" is a telling statement because they are both right there, in plain sight, in close striking distance to each other. There are no body guards around Jacob; no protective barrier (was the break in the ring of volcanic ash around the cabin the reason Jacob fled to the foot of the statue?) Jacob has no protection that we can see.
So why doesn't Esau simply kill him right then?
Possibly because in doing so he will bring about his own destruction. Evil does not actually exist unless there is good to define evil as a juxtopisition against itself.
Or maybe "kill" does not mean in mortal/physical terms, but rather philosophical terms. Esau wants to "kill" free will (Jacob) so that fate prevails.
I'm thinking in saying "It only ends once" Jacob was referring to the end of the world. For at that time, visitors to the island will have finally evolved beyond their hostility to a consciousness of harmony: Rose & Bernard - only wanting to be together, nothing more. No materialistic or morale vices. No more need to learn from their mistakes - all replaced by a desire to live together and thus not having to die alone (thank you Jack)
It only ends once...
I think this can point to:
Ragnarok--with Jacob and Baldr and the Man in Black as Loki (which is kind of nice with Loki looking a bit like "Locke" but turning out not to be him). It fits nicely into that myth because Loki couldn't kill Baldr directly but had to trick someone else to do it for him, and Baldr's death is also the first step in the beginning of Ragnarok.
Could be the heat death of the universe as well using the entropy vs. consciousness model.
And what I like about the latter is the possibility that Jacob is looking to overturn that ending, to overcome entropy, through expanding consciousness (which is why he needs people on the island).
Yin/Yang certainly makes sense, and I like the idea of them cycling--move and countermove as I was saying above. And your description of what the Man in Black might say--sounds like what the security system would say.
Again thinking of the immense power of the island and the possibility that there could be immense change (Jacob)--the Man in Black enforces the "no change" or destiny (what's done is done) mode which is the security system for change taken too far.
I did notice the black/white contrast and that's why I was thinking of the appearance of Rose and Bernard as the ending of this cycle between the man in white/man in black--if not literally, maybe just a foreshadowing.
Though Jacob appears to be the "good" guy (and is allied with Illana who says they are)--I actually thought that finding the loophole might be a good thing, even if it results in Jacob's "death." If they are looping they aren't progressing (of course they aren't decaying either)--just in stasis. Loophole means increased possibility and I tend to think that weighs down on Jacob's side which is why "they're coming" I think could be a very interesting countermove (as opposed to the fixity the characters were in this season). (Just thinking about the reference to them travelling in a tunnel made by Kate about Aaron's cartoon--a loophole means they can know see peripherally instead of just front and back. Not just temporal vision but possibly alternative lines of reality?)
It only ends once...
Smokie as Loki
In case this wasn't clear--I thought the man in black was imprisoned at some point by Jacob and the incident released him/it in the form of Smokie. That would also be a connection to Loki.
And everything that got pulled into that hole somehow became part of Smokie--the chain, Juliet, Juliet's pregnancy that never comes to fruition. (Does anyone remember anything else?)
And to follow up on LC's question in regard to who was in the cabin. I think it was Smokie/Loki/Esau or whatever we want to call it. Because appearing to Locke and not to Ben is part of the set up to get Ben to kill Jacob.
Let's call this character Esau until we have more info on him
He's not Locke, and there seems to be a good chance (though not 100%) he's the Smoke Monster. But for the sake of convenience, let's call him Esau for now.
Assuming he is Smokie, this points to all of Smokie's previous appearances as points in time which he needed to manipulate to set up killing Jacob. Yemi judging Eko, Ben's mother speaking to him in the jungle, chasing the A-team through the jungle to blow open the Swan, etc.
But perhaps we need to be looking at the other things that Jacob may have been blamed for but not necessarily responsible for - things like Ben's cancer, which seem quite out of character for Jacob based on what we saw of him in this episode.
If anything, the only previous appearance we've seen of Jacob (in the cabin in ep 3x20 - The Man Behind the Curtain) looked more like Esau than Jacob. What if the thing trapped in the cabin was Esau (or at least some part of him)?
As to Juliet being pregnant - I don't know about that. But we do know that Eloise is pregnant. And that she's the Leader at the time of the Incident. And that she leaves the Island. And that her child dies on the Island, before he's born. And that she kills him, which probably carries some steep karmic debt with it.
So begins the long hellish hiatus.
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The island is a character itself
Wow you guys, this is really fantastic discussion - really high level. Intimidating to be honest.... Until I read this thread, I was theorizing Locke had been replicated at some point, but it makes more sense that Smokie has been impersonating Locke and that Smokie has appeared in human form numerous times to manipulate events. The seemingly now dated reference to Cerebus doesn't seem to apply anymore because Egyptian lore seem the way the writers want to take us.
What I'm struggling with is who/when was the loop broken? Has it been broken yet? Maybe Desmond's key act is the turning point. "The island's not done with you yet Desmond" which confuses me because Eloise Hawking made that proclomation when she still knew how events were going to unfurl.
Jacob visiting certain people is significant in that it implies he's been watching over them (cultivating them?) as if steering them to the island so they would go through the cycle (seasons 1-5) in order to develop the level of consciousness necessary to achieve whatever Jacob's ultimate purpose is. I see Jacob as a God-like (the good guys) figure and the man in black as his evil counterpart. Jacob must have known everything would lead to this and has been training his apostles (Sayid, Juliet, Sawyer, Hurley, Jack, Kate, Miles, Daniel, Charlotte, Jin, Sun, Locke & Desmond) to take over for him when he is killed by traitor Ben. Note: we don't know that Jacob didn't visit MORE people just what we were shown. For that matter, we don't even know that Jacob is dead - what with Jack on the way, there may be yet another person for him to fix.
What is very cool is the island has now been tangibly shown to be a character, albeit split into a yin/yang as Prof posed.
But Jaz, jury is still out for me on Hurley to replace Jacob. I still hold to Jack's aura as a great man, a great leader. He's already displayed his leadership skills, but now that he has added faith to his repitoire, he is now ready to fullfull his destiny as a completely worthy leader.
All that vending machine needed was a little push...
Hey! I suddenly realized that the exchange between Jack and Jacob was centered on getting candy out of a vending machine! D'oh!
I'm not sure this is exactly the way Prof was thinking of the vending machine in describing the way time works on the show, but in thinking about this exchange more, I'm wondering if there's some evidence to support Stip's idea about Jack's destiny.
Jack nicks a young woman's dural sac--his father tells him to count to five in order to pull himself together. If Christian operates the girl's life will be spared but she will be paralyzed. Christian=paralysis. The same thing repeating over and over. What Esau says keeps happening when Jacob brings people to the island. Jacob says, no, things don't repeat exactly--there's repetition plus some change. Repetition=loops or circles. Repetiton+change=spirals. As Agent said in the "My Dinner" thread--vending machines use spirals to hold candy. You put the money in and the spiral moves and drops out the candy. Except when it needs a little push.
Jack is embarrassed by his father confronting him in surgery. His own ego is still getting in his way. He has to get past ego to reach faith. He is adding faith to his repertoire this season, as Stip said. His test of faith is going to come when, at the beginning of S6, he's back on the island instead of back aboard 815.
The little push--the push out the window which propels Locke to his destiny and the push on the vending machine propelling Jack to his. I think Jacob wanted the whole plot that Esau concocts to come about. It's necessary in order for the next turn of the spiral to happen, for the candy to come out. (ooo, one other push--the push of the donkey wheel)
Jacob isn't just stabbed, Esau pushes his body into the fire. The Others' burials at sea include fires. Is fire supposed to prevent the spirit from returning in some way? But then is the passing of the Apollo bar from Jacob to Jack significant in that Apollo is the sun god--so fire not destructive but reincarnating? (Note that would fit in nicely with Jacob being an anti-Entropy, anti-heat-death force.) And "they're coming"--as in a second coming? And the they includes two people who seem able to contact the dead in different ways as well as the one who was handed the Apollo bar (passing the torch?).
oh that little push...
Jaz, you and I are on the same page on this one it's not even funny. The passing of the torch metaphor (the Apollo bar) works so nicely here. The fact that Jacob took one for himself signifies he and Jack are...equals?
"I think Jacob wanted the whole plot that Esau concocts to come about." - Yes, exactly so. It only ends once for Jacob, but now that his replacement - Jack - is on the way, his word can live on. Hope the ultimate point of the journey from S1-S6 is revealed to us before the S6 finale. Jack being tapped as Jacob's replacement hints to me at one of two things: 1) the circle of life can continue or 2) the end of the world.
I surmise it significant that Jacob (Apollo the Sun God) seemed to bring Locke back to life (reincarnation) after Locke fell out of the window.
I don't know which way fire flickers here - as a good force or an evil one. But maybe that's on purpose because fire can be harnessed for BOTH good (eg: cooking of fish) and destruction (eg: burning someone to death), depending on the user.
The more I read about the biblical story of Jacob and Esau, the more I see the parallel to Lost. Esau was prevented from killing Jacob by their father, Isaac. But after Isaac <insert your best guess on who Isaac is> dies - is Jacob's protection also gone? Is it coincidence or conspicuous that Locke is the significant character to have died recently which paved the way for Esau to stage his revenge on Jacob? If memory serves, in the biblical story, the sons of Esau and Jacob wage war, depending on the version. So the hostiles (Esau's people) vs anyone else that comes to the island (Jacob's people) could just be a repetitive loop of the original Jacob vs Esau confrontation. Ben seems to me to be a reincarnation of Esau - someone who sold (was tricked?) out of his birth rite to rule the island.
But what is the "loophole" that's been found that allows Esau to finally destroy Jacob? Is it Locke's death and subsequent return to the island? If so, why didn't it happen when Christian's body was returned to the island when 815 crashed? Maybe when Desmond turned the key, he reset something that foiled Esau's plot that forced Esau to arrange for yet another dead body (Locke) to return to the island. Maybe Desmond will do something extraordinary again to save the day?
Last thought: Jack, gaining momentum as a forceful leader thus able to bring about real and substantial change by way of finding his faith, says to Richard Alpert "Don't give up on Locke" means something, but I just don't know what - yet.
Speaking of Desmond...
I forgot to point out that the island where Odysseus loses his entire crew (or to be more precise--where the crew does something that results in their death at sea) is an island sacred to Helios. There is a rule on the island that the red cattle (seen in one of the eps last season as I remember)are sacred to Helios and cannot be touched. The crew is starving and slaughters and eats the cattle--then are punished later with Odysseus the only survivor.
"loophole"--well there is the whole rule changing that Ben blames on Widmore. I don't know if that's part of the loophole or not. Why it didn't happen with Christian's body and return--I think 'cause it's not just the availability of the body; it's the fact that the person who Esau can pretend to be has been set up as the next leader and can manipulate someone else to do the killing for him. Christian really wasn't in that position. But I'm sure there's more to it than that.
Manipulating someone else to do the killing...
The roles they play
Stip, maybe it's much more the case that all of them have roles to play rather than to think of one of them as a replacement for Jacob. Jacob is reading a book by Flannery O'Connor--Everything that rises must converge--those who Jacob brought to the island on 815 must converge to take his place.
One thing I realized makes both Jack and Hurlley significant is that I think Smokie/Esau has tried to get rid of them and in the same way--what appears to be Christian leading Jack off a cliff, Smoke as Dave doing the same thing to Hurley.
When Jacob appeared to Jack--the candy bar wouldn't fall off its ledge. And then there's Jack almost jumping off the bridge. Is Jacob what lifts them up? Delivers the Apollo bar to Jack--feeding him a bar that is named for a god--feeding him a god's body? Communion.
I think Hurley's role is similar to John the Baptist--he's associated with water strongly in that first episode of S4. And I think Charlie sees him that way in his vision.
Kate receives the lunchbox from Jacob--"cases" figure prominently in her past. Sawyer gets a pen--is a reader and fabulator.
An easy trap
One of the traps I keep falling into is trying to fit the events in the show into some known parable, biblical reference or legend, but the storyline seems to want to form its own identity, create its own mythology.
Totally agree with Jacob watching over Jack. The symbolism of the Apollo bar was very clever: two great leaders, one human, one... deity? sharing a meal. Good catch on the Falnnery book, I need to delve into that one as it seems a clear clue.
I really like your assessment of Smokie/Esau trying to get rid of Jack & Hurley. Much is explainable (although not scientifically) if we accept the visions as Smokie taking human form. Walt to John in the pit "You've got work to do" etc.. Need to work it through for consistency because Christian said same thing to Vincent (in Mobisode) "Go find Jack, he's got work to do." Why would Esau want to help Jack unless it were to bring about the events we've seen, that play to Esau's agenda.
If we trace it back, we find numerous instances where Esau manipulated events to bring about the incident in 1977 that freed him thus allowing him to impersonate Locke in 2007 and eventually kill Jacob (via Ben).
So now I still have numerous questions:
- Are Jacob and Esau human or spiritual ? What is their origin? How did they come to be? And don't tell me they are omnipotent...
- what really happened to Locke in S1 when he came face to face with the eye of the island?
- who was on Jacob's original list?
It feels like the writers have succesfully achieved a Tabula Rasa slate for the plot with which to enter S6.
The daily grind
I think pretty much any reference to "work" I remember noticing--led to bad results. This was especially true when they all took up jobs in the hatch in S2. And it makes me think of assembly lines--doing the same work over and over without change--that seems to be what Esau represents.
Esau's manipulation--in this episode he sends Richard to heal Locke's leg and tell him to give Richard in 1954 the compass so that Richard will think Locke is special. Locke was never in fact special it seems. What a really sad story when you piece it together--his entire life was a lie.
Ethan is the one who shot Locke. I've been wondering what the parallel Jacob thread in the narrative is and my main inclination is to think that it threads through the lives of the children who either are born or conceived on the island. Ethan and Aaron connected for instance with Ethan having administered those injections to Aaron.
Kate's lunchbox--"The New Kids on the Block"--Aaron, Ji Yeon, Charlie, and Walt?
I don't think Jacob and Esau are human. I think they represent an archtypical opposition. Yin/Yang may be the best way of conceiving of it as it implies that both are necessary.
Very interesting points, Stip...
... very interesting indeed.
I've been talking to jaz some privately about this stuff and I'm feeling less and less cynical about the show so far and where it's going (if you couldn't tell I was feeling cynical about it... heh). I like where your thoughts are going here.
The Wail of Smokie
Jaz, I meant to comment on your pose that everything that fell down the drill hole was absorbed by Smokie into its volcanic cosmic karma dust (I like that idea a lot) also explains why Smokie "wails." When the heavy metal frame of the drill was pulled down the hole, it made a screaching/wailing noise on its way down (or it could have been Juliet's cries of agony) and the chain hitting the shaft walls could be why we hear that metallic clinking noise when he travels.
We probably need Doc Emmett Brown and his expertise on nuclear space time continium fusion to tell us what you get when you melt together a hydrogen bomb with a smokie security system, but I totally agree with your theory.